Indirect light - will my kitchen be too dark, and if so what can we do?

[puntloos]

Please take a quick look at the below, and would love an opinion on:

A/ Would this kitchen be too dark as it is. 

B/ What is the official/scientific way to go about finding this out? Is there some rule such as "at least xyz lux measured at 3pm on the furthest horizontal surface..."

C/ Anyone have a similarish kitchen - basically sun-facing but no direct light - that can put us at ease?

D/ Should it be too dark, will replacing the navy and potentially the oak with some light/white colour help anything?

 

- "Too dark" would be defined as that you probably need to turn on kitchen lights even at 3pm during a normal-ish day

- As you can see, house is SSE facing, sun disappears from the last tip of the garden room at 4pm already.

 

 

 

 

 

Some renders with different settings, certainly not officially representative of an actual situation but to get an idea.

Note that even the livingroom in the back looks 'darkish' so clearly computers are not great at simulating what a real human would think of the situation, especially since our eyes easily adapt etc etc.  

The gardenroom has a ton of glass as can be seen, 2 rooflights, triangle, etc. Also big glass doors in living but a bit further and not a huge amount of surface can be seen from the kitchen

 

 

and as for the kitchen colour scheme:

- White, warm oak floor, navy.

[AliG]

Our kitchen has lots of windows, but none near the actual kitchen area. i find that we always need the lights on when working at the island and I think you would be the same here.

 

The pictures look like quite an accurate representation of how it would look when I think about mine. You really need overhead light in the kitchen area and the angle from the window and sky lights would prevent that happening.

 

Part of it is personal as i like it to be bright.

 

I would probably have a grid of 12 LEDs above the kitchen area.

[Radian]

My feelings are that almost any kitchen with fitted cupboards will tend to look better with under cabinet lighting for the counter tops - irrespective of the amount of natural light coming into the room. Once this is provided, the actual amount of natural ight is much less critical. Last April, when the cost of electricity tripled, I implemented an automatic dimmer to save power when the kitchen area was unoccupied. Being reduced to a lower level but remaining on means it still looks warm and inviting when viewed from adjacent areas. I note your letterbox window above the sink so maybe that area is covered but I don't know what's on the rear inside wall - that area looks to be the darkest.

[puntloos]

5 minutes ago, AliG said:

Our kitchen has lots of windows, but none near the actual kitchen area. i find that we always need the lights on when working at the island and I think you would be the same here.

Any chance you can give us a picture of your kitchen? (and some detail about time of day, if you would turn on lights at this point etc)

Edited March 18, 2023 by puntloos

[puntloos]

2 minutes ago, Radian said:

My feelings are that almost any kitchen with fitted cupboards will tend to look better with under cabinet lighting for the counter tops - irrespective of the amount of natural light coming into the room.

Funny - we have under-cabinet lighting in our current rental and absolutely never use it. Somewhat of a laziness factor. 

2 minutes ago, Radian said:

Once this is provided, the actual amount of natural ight is much less critical.

Perhaps, but is a dark-ish kitchen that you constantly (have to?) light a true downside or are we imagining this? Frankly I should stop and think about my kitchen behavior, we currently have a fairly direct-light kitchen but I haven't really stopped to see if/when I turn on the light.

2 minutes ago, Radian said:

Last April, when the cost of electricity tripled, I implemented an automatic dimmer to save power when the kitchen area was unoccupied. Being reduced to a lower level but remaining on means it still looks warm and inviting when viewed from adjacent areas. I note your letterbox window above the sink so maybe that area is covered but I don't know what's on the rear inside wall - that area looks to be the darkest.

Yes, the rear inside wall has no further windows, just fridges, cupboards.

[bassanclan]

We have an 'internal' kitchen as an extension was put on. It is "too dark" by your definition, but plenty of good lighting means it is better lit than most other kitchens I go in.

 

I think if you have good natural light you are more likely to overlook good (electric) lighting, but that is exactly what is needed in a kitchen. Far rather an 'internal' kitchen than dining or sitting room

[Radian]

4 minutes ago, puntloos said:

Funny - we have under-cabinet lighting in our current rental and absolutely never use it. Somewhat of a laziness factor. 

 

Purely personal no doubt. It's something I find difficult to pin down...but wandering round other buildings I sometimes see something I like that leaves a lasting impression. An example would be a historic home, on a bright day, with a table lamp lit in the corner of a room. Such a thing adds a cosy, romantic feel to the space and the slight decadence of burning electricity even when the Sun is shining just adds to the generosity of the effect. With highly efficient LED lighting and solar PV up on the roof, it's a little luxury that gives me pleasure without too much in the way of guilt.

[puntloos]

One question I keep on thinking about as well- 

 

How much worse is a north-facing kitchen (brightness wise) vs a south-facing kitchen, both in the 'directly next to window' and 'deeper into the house' sense of the word?

[puntloos]

51 minutes ago, bassanclan said:

We have an 'internal' kitchen as an extension was put on. It is "too dark" by your definition, but plenty of good lighting means it is better lit than most other kitchens I go in.

Would love to see a picture to get an idea, with and without lights on?

 

51 minutes ago, bassanclan said:

I think if you have good natural light you are more likely to overlook good (electric) lighting,

What do you mean 'overlook'? as in 'don't install it since you don't need it'?

51 minutes ago, bassanclan said:

but that is exactly what is needed in a kitchen.

Good electric, agreed. Especially since cooking often happens during evening/night anyway. 

51 minutes ago, bassanclan said:

Far rather an 'internal' kitchen than dining or sitting room

Sorry could you rephrase?

[AliG]

I just took these. 3pm and cloudy. The widows you see face south east, the sun is currently southwest.

 

All three side of the kitchen have windows except where the kitchen is

 

In order these are

 

1. No lights

 

2. Lights between the island and worktop and in the wings to the kitchen. 10x 5w GU10

 

3. All ceiling lights, adding in lights in the sitting area. 16x 5W GU10

 

4. Ceiling lights plus under cabinet and above island lights.

 

We use number 2 nearly all the time. If it is sunny outside, you can sit at the table without the lights on, but it is never quite light enough on the kitchen area to work. If it is very sunny and in the middle of the day, I notice that there is no difference at the table between lights on and lights off, but by that point someone has nearly always turned them on.

 

We basically never use the under cabinet lights or above island lights,  we do almost all prep work on the island.

 

I split the lights into two circuits, kitchen/entrance/table area and sitting area. I never turn on the sitting area lights, my family always turn on all of the lights.

 

By my calculation, the kitchen lights use more electricity than all the other lights in the house put together. This reflects spending a lot of time in the kitchen plus GU10s being a less efficient way to light an area so the kitchen have more bulbs to get a similar spread of light than other rooms.

 

I added a picture of the whole room with no lights on. I think it quite clearly shows that light doesn't penetrate much more than 2-3m into the room from the windows.

 

If I was redoing things I would also have put a couple of GU10s directly above the island, although it is well enough lit by the ones around the island. I would say it is much brighter above the island with just one set of lights on which I don't think the picture captures well.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[puntloos]

5 hours ago, AliG said:

I just took these. 3pm and cloudy. The widows you see face south east, the sun is currently southwest.

 

Man, I wish I could click 'like' more than once.

 

Well I can, but that just turns off the like. Rest assured I turned like on and off at least 20x.

 

Your setup isn't quite the same as ours of course, but I think the light levels are very comparable with our future situation since we do have a brighter section right next to the kitchen, but on the flip side you have lights from 3 sides in a cross shape. Hey, is that a converted church?  

 

One final thing would be amazing - if you have a mildly modern phone (2017 onwards) they all have dedicated light sensors in them, and a light meter app would be able to give a good indication.. is there any chance you can compare the light of your phone lying on the table near the window on the sun side, and a phone lying on the island? (the light meter typically is next to the selfie camera, above the screen)

 

https://www.photoworkout.com/best-light-meter-apps/ 

 

Did you post a floorplan somewhere? I can go through your message log but would love to get a bit better idea of your house dimensions

 

5 hours ago, AliG said:

 

All three side of the kitchen have windows except where the kitchen is

 

In order these are

 

1. No lights

 

2. Lights between the island and worktop and in the wings to the kitchen. 10x 5w GU10

 

3. All ceiling lights, adding in lights in the sitting area. 16x 5W GU10

 

4. Ceiling lights plus under cabinet and above island lights.

 

We use number 2 nearly all the time. If it is sunny outside, you can sit at the table without the lights on, but it is never quite light enough on the kitchen area to work. If it is very sunny and in the middle of the day, I notice that there is no difference at the table between lights on and lights off, but by that point someone has nearly always turned them on.

 

We basically never use the under cabinet lights or above island lights,  we do almost all prep work on the island.

 

I split the lights into two circuits, kitchen/entrance/table area and sitting area. I never turn on the sitting area lights, my family always turn on all of the lights.

 

By my calculation, the kitchen lights use more electricity than all the other lights in the house put together. This reflects spending a lot of time in the kitchen plus GU10s being a less efficient way to light an area so the kitchen have more bulbs to get a similar spread of light than other rooms.

 

I added a picture of the whole room with no lights on. I think it quite clearly shows that light doesn't penetrate much more than 2-3m into the room from the windows.

 

If I was redoing things I would also have put a couple of GU10s directly above the island, although it is well enough lit by the ones around the island. I would say it is much brighter above the island with just one set of lights on which I don't think the picture captures well.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[AliG]

Long time since I posted these, i found one with the lighting plan n it. I did all the lighting plans myself, it took a long time -

 

The kitchen lighting plan is correct here, there were some changes to other rooms after this.

 

It is very dull and raining today. Yesterday was a bit brighter.

 

1. Lights off -

 

Table close to windows - 170 lux. The lux level varied between 190 at the window edge of the table and around 90 at the other side, showing how quickly it drops off as you go into the room.

 

Island - 30 lux

 

2. Lights on behind island and table -

 

Table - 220 lux

 

Island - 160 lux

 

3. All ceiling lights on -

 

Everywhere in the room was between 190 and 220 lux.

 

 

[puntloos]

3 hours ago, AliG said:

Long time since I posted these, i found one with the lighting plan n it. I did all the lighting plans myself, it took a long time -

 

The kitchen lighting plan is correct here, there were some changes to other rooms after this.

 

It is very dull and raining today. Yesterday was a bit brighter.

 

1. Lights off -

 

Table close to windows - 170 lux. The lux level varied between 190 at the window edge of the table and around 90 at the other side, showing how quickly it drops off as you go into the room.

 

Island - 30 lux

 

2. Lights on behind island and table -

 

Table - 220 lux

 

Island - 160 lux

 

3. All ceiling lights on -

 

Everywhere in the room was between 190 and 220 lux.

 

 

Nice! Your plan doesn't have any dimensions but eyeballing off the door widths in those 'side alcoves' I'm guessing they are effectively about 1500 deep on each side, so the island is about 2200 away from the closest window? 30 lux at 2m is not a lot, and indeed you need 200 for comfortable kitchening -  but I'm noticing the same here.

 

Slightly off topic but I also note in your living and dining you have a light string in a rectangle shape. Is this an actual pelmet, or did you just embed the lights in the ceiling straight down?

[AliG]

The wings of the kitchen are 2m deep. It is 10m across so the centre of the island is over 5m from the nearest window.

 

But the inside edge of the table is only 2m away and even at that point it is already considerably darker.

 

2 hours ago, puntloos said:

Slightly off topic but I also note in your living and dining you have a light string in a rectangle shape. Is this an actual pelmet, or did you just embed the lights in the ceiling straight down?

The ceilings have a step with the sides 150mm below the centre and LED strips inside them bouncing off the ceiling.

 

 

[puntloos]

On 20/03/2023 at 19:17, AliG said:

The wings of the kitchen are 2m deep. It is 10m across so the centre of the island is over 5m from the nearest window.

 

That'll be about the same for me then.. great info, thank you.

On 20/03/2023 at 19:17, AliG said:

But the inside edge of the table is only 2m away and even at that point it is already considerably darker.

 

Yep it clearly goes very quick

 

On 20/03/2023 at 19:17, AliG said:

The ceilings have a step with the sides 150mm below the centre and LED strips inside them bouncing off the ceiling.

 

 

 

Was this purely an aesthetic choice? (it looks great!) or did you have practical reasons for this design too? In a way I don't need this because I actually have a high ceiling with a void above it (2700 + 150 void) so any lamps I want to get in there the void can be used for exactly that..

Edited March 22, 2023 by puntloos

[AliG]

17 hours ago, puntloos said:

Was this purely an aesthetic choice? (it looks great!) or did you have practical reasons for this design too? In a way I don't need this because I actually have a high ceiling with a void above it (2700 + 150 void) so any lamps I want to get in there the void can be used for exactly that..

 

It was an aesthetic choice, although it did in places make routing the MVHR easier. We have the stepped ceiling in three rooms. I had just seen it and thought it was a cool feature.

 

Ceilings are similar height to yours, usually around 2.75 with a small void above. We have concrete plank upper floors and did not realise that these are not flat, so had to drop the ceilings down from them more than expected to create flat ceilings. Intended ceiling height was 2.8m.