Octopus ASHP Quotation info

[sharpener]

4 hours ago, joth said:

Absolutely. But doing it with physical control like a fat contactor switch in the submeter is very 1970s E7 thinking. 

 

21st century IoT will have each controlled device individually managed in the logical plane, not via killing the power to them.

 

Obviously IoT brings a plethora of its own challenges, plus the who ethic of revenue sharing for this needs figuring out however it's done, but seems highly probable if it happens at all it will be via digital control of devices.

 

 

Yes. EV charging points now have to have remote control built in to them for these reasons. The industry thinking about HPs is I imagine going in the same direction, particularly as they require much the same paperwork as EVCPs.

 

I am not convinced that these are the reasons Octopus told the OP they cannot use his spare way. It will be interesting to see what explanation they give the OP when he asks. I suspect it is more to do with avoiding surprises during the installation process.

 

E.g. is the CU correctly specified for the additional load, do they need to swap the breaker for a Type C (as mentioned above) and then can they source a replacement breaker for that particular manufacturer and board? I have just put a new breaker in a 10 y/o Volex board, couldn't get an exact match so had to modify the busbar slightly, Octopus probably wouldn't want to do that as it voids the warranty. Alternative was to buy a s/h breaker but they wouldn't want to do that either.

[Dillsue]

For anyone concerned about big brother shutting down their ASHP from the meter box, just reroute the supply to somewhere you control. In the OPs case, route the supply to the spare RCBO in the CU.

 

I'd be fairly sure that any HP that supports remote shutdown/throttling can have that feature disabled if big brother wants to tinker, without consent

 

I can't see anyone routinely controlling power supply to a domestic property without consent. Might be financial penalties/benefits but likely always by agreement

[sharpener]

1 hour ago, Dillsue said:

For anyone concerned about big brother shutting down their ASHP from the meter box, just reroute the supply to somewhere you control. In the OPs case, route the supply to the spare RCBO in the CU.

 

I'd be fairly sure that any HP that supports remote shutdown/throttling can have that feature disabled if big brother wants to tinker, without consent

 

I can't see anyone routinely controlling power supply to a domestic property without consent. Might be financial penalties/benefits but likely always by agreement

 

Well if British Gas have already exercised their powers of entry to have their agents fit prepayment meters - against OFGEM rules and the wishes of the householder - you can imagine how much more likely they are to remotely disconnect customers at will if they can do so without leaving their heated offices. One of the reasons I do not want a smart meter.

 

And given that MCS standards are already part of the BUS and Permitted Development rules I can forsee that the remote control of the HP will be incorporated into the MCS rules and disabling it will be made impossible - just as the capability to use HPs for air conditioniing in summer is disabled on MCS listed HPs already.

 

Edited March 31, 2023 by sharpener

[joth]

One benefit of central submetering is if National Grid start requiring evidence of the specific load shedding, then you can imagine centrally managed supplier gear to be more accurate/trust worthy for them than random appliances reporting being turned off.

It'll be interesting to see how this plays out. For my part I'm becoming increasingly skeptical of the whole ToU shifting thing. Octopus already have such a mix of complex import and export tariffs I can't keep up with them, and I'm an enthusiastic target customer for them. Add on top this entire winter I've participated in and scored "points" in all their power saving games, and earned a whopping £2 for my efforts. Consumers are not going to take this up at scale 

[Dillsue]

28 minutes ago, sharpener said:

 

Well if British Gas have already exercised their powers of entry to have their agents fit prepayment meters - against OFGEM rules and the wishes of the householder - you can imagine how much more likely they are to remotely disconnect customers at will if they can do so without leaving their heated offices. One of the reasons I do not want a smart meter.

I'm pretty sure they've forcibly fitted prepayment meters where people havent paid their bills, not because someone's drawn a load they dont like 

[sharpener]

1 hour ago, Dillsue said:

I'm pretty sure they've forcibly fitted prepayment meters where people havent paid their bills, not because someone's drawn a load they dont like 

 

If you give them the capability they will play with it.

[markocosic]

10 hours ago, joth said:

seems highly probable if it happens at all it will be via digital control of devices.

 

The metering - if the utility companies are to get their dirty little hands on it - needs to happen within their meter cabinet. That's why they're running back to the cabinet.

 

The 1970s style emergency load shedding load control is already built into the SMETS2 meters too. (they have control for auxiliary loads via contactors)

 

There will be IoT for "planned" control. "Please reduce your usage" signals.

 

There will be "we pull the plug" for emergency fast grid response. "Rolling blackouts for discretionary loads" signals.

 

It was decided by the industry two to three decades ago when they designed the market structure around smart meters.

Doesn't make it right. Does make it the reason for the cable routing you're seeing.

 

Wait for the next thing which will be retrospective legislation to cover the mess they're busy making with EV chargers...

 

[markocosic]

5 hours ago, Dillsue said:

can't see anyone routinely controlling power supply to a domestic property without consent.

 

Think again.

 

Houses are designed for about 1kW distributed demand at the substation.

 

You may get away with drawing 2kW average for each house before the substation pops.

 

Draw 7kW for each house (in an all EV scenario) and you'll quickly end up with 0kW average and the 11kV to 230/415V substation on fire. Or the fuses popped.

 

Heat pumps and EVs will be forcibly sheddable loads in future.

 

 

It may be that the way they do this - a fair way - is offering dual meters.

 

One is 15p/kWh but not guaranteed/can be shut down. Smart people plug EVs and heat pumps into that.

 

The other is 50p/kWh and never shut down but limited to say 16A. 

 

And the third is £1/kWh and never shut down and limited to whatever the fuse will take.

 

 

Hence running discretionary loads back to the meter cabinet.

[Dillsue]

4 hours ago, markocosic said:

Hence running discretionary loads back to the meter cabinet.

A slightly less draconian view than forced load shedding might be-

 

Cabling direct to the meter box is the least disruptive.

Or

Its one less trade in the house.

Or

It can be done while the householder is at work

Or

Octopus may want to offer an attractive TOU tariff that includes disabling your ASHP

[markocosic]

8 hours ago, Dillsue said:

 

Octopus may want to offer an attractive TOU tariff that includes disabling your ASHP

 

Yes.

 

They want the option to meter/control from the only location in the dwelling that they as a regulated utility co can contract with.

[Kelvin]

Octopus have a tiny share of the ASHP market. While this will increase it will remain a tiny share. Most ASHP installs are by smaller independent companies and that isn’t going to change. They don’t insist on connecting the ASHP directly to the meter cupboard. It just sounds like a conspiracy theory to me. I really can’t see Octopus switching off power to your ASHP willy nilly when it suits them. Octopus seem to be one of the better companies. 

[Dillsue]

14 hours ago, markocosic said:

 

Yes.

 

They want the option to meter/control from the only location in the dwelling that they as a regulated utility co can contract with.

And if you dont consent to that, just move the ASHP supply to your CU.

[lakelandfolk]

First of all thanks to everyone for your interest and advice. Next I need to apologise in advance for my next questions, I feel so dumb sometimes.

Still in negotiations with Octopus re ASHP design and cost. My earlier query was about keeping the SolarIBoost, OK we have to take a new cylinder to qualify for BUS.                           1. Would it be technically possible and safe to connect the IBoost to the new ASHP cylinder single immersion heater?                                                                                                             2. Is there a timed/switching device available that would, at pre set times, connect the power from the IBoost to the immersion heater. ie 12:30am to say 2am from the grid cable and then switch at say 9am and connect to the available solar cable?   So we would have 2 cables from the IBoost into the timer/switching device and 1 from the device to the immersion element.

I also notice that the Octopus design includes a buffer tank with an immersion heater, could that be utilised via the IBoost?  Why does the buffer need an immersion heater?

[JohnMo]

1. yes, but the heat pump would not be able to complete the legionnaire cycle, so would see push back from the installer.

Do you need a legionnaire cycle if you are using DHW daily is questionable.

 

2. No idea

 

The buffer with immersion, will be there to make up any short falls in heat pump performance on a colder day than design conditions. It would kick in short the ASHP not be able to cope. May be waste connecting iboost, as PV performance in the heating system is rubbish 

[sharpener]

2 hours ago, lakelandfolk said:

1. Would it be technically possible and safe to connect the IBoost to the new ASHP cylinder single immersion heater?                                                       

 

2. Is there a timed/switching device available that would, at pre set times, connect the power from the IBoost to the immersion heater. ie 12:30am to say 2am from the grid cable and then switch at say 9am and connect to the available solar cable?   So we would have 2 cables from the IBoost into the timer/switching device and 1 from the device to the immersion element.

3. I also notice that the Octopus design includes a buffer tank with an immersion heater, could that be utilised via the IBoost?  Why does the buffer need an immersion heater?

 

1. Yes

2. Yes. You could use an ordinary timeswitch to pull in a 16A changeover contactor during your off-peak hours but have the n/c contacts going to the PV at other times. This would also meet the requirement for Legionnaires' protection with a longer period once a week. I envisage it all going in a 4-module DIN enclosure which any competent electrician should be able to wire up for you.

3. Some HPs have/need built in boost heaters (see elsethread re Daikin), some don't. The buffer tank is a convenient place to put it if not, CoolEnergy fit them as standard. They also can provide extra heating power in extreme cold weather if the spec is marginal. Technically you could do it but the PV is probably more valuable to firstly run the HP and then top up the DHW cylinder temp after the HP has had a go at it.

[Steve W]

I have an Octopus ASHP which uses a 25amp RCBO in a spare way in the CU. In order to satisfy their anti-surge requirement they fitted a whole house anti surge enclosure between the meter and the consumer unit which was a bonus. Didn't make a big deal over it.

[ReedRichards]

7 hours ago, JohnMo said:

1. yes, but the heat pump would not be able to complete the legionnaire cycle, so would see push back from the installer.

 

That's not true, it depends how the wiring is done.  About a day after my heat pump was installed it stopped working with an error code (the cause was a blocked filter).  Because of the error code I had no control over the heat pump and could not turn on my immersion heater to maintain a supply of hot water until the installer came back (which fortunately he did very promptly).  But the lack of an override was unacceptable and I wanted to make sure that this could never happen again.  So asked for the switch for the immersion heater to be wired in parallel with the heat pump controller.  At the moment I have a WiFi controlled switch but it could equally well be an iBoost or similar.    

[sharpener]

29 minutes ago, ReedRichards said:

 

... but it could equally well be an iBoost or similar.    

 

I'm not sure how an iBoost would react to something else in parallel with its output. I built my own diverter but I can't say if that would like it either. Perhaps better to have the HP operate a changeover relay for this too as suggested upthread.

[DanDee]

4 hours ago, ReedRichards said:

 

About a day after my heat pump was installed it stopped working with an error code (the cause was a blocked filter).  

 

Are you able now to solve/clear the issue with a blocked filter and the subsequent error code yourself?

[ReedRichards]

7 hours ago, sharpener said:

 

I'm not sure how an iBoost would react to something else in parallel with its output. 

 But what's in parallel is the mains supply, a switch, and then a feed to the immersion heater.  The switch is controlled by the heat pump but the immersion heater has a dedicated circuit.  The iBoost control is the mains supply, then a switch, then a 3 kW dimmer, then a feed to the immersion heater.  The iBoost controls the switch and the dimmer.

 

8 hours ago, sharpener said:

I built my own diverter

So what could go wrong with what I describe?

 

   

 

4 hours ago, DanDee said:

Are you able now to solve/clear the issue with a blocked filter and the subsequent error code yourself?

 

It's never happened again.  If it did happen again I now know exactly what the error code means.  I would call my installer as a first resort and try to tackle it myself only as a last resort.     

[sharpener]

1 hour ago, ReedRichards said:

The iBoost control is the mains supply, then a switch, then a 3 kW dimmer, then a feed to the immersion heater.  The iBoost controls the switch and the dimmer.

 

So what could go wrong with what I describe?

   

 

Without knowing more about the iBoost and its 3kW dimmer module I don't know whether

a) applying 240V AC to the output when the dimmer is telling it to be OFF would cause any internal damage

b) the iBoost control circuitry seeing 240V on the output when it is expecting to see 0V would register as a faulty dimmer module and it would cause an error condition or shut down until reset.

 

Ditto putting the chopped waveform from the dimmer back onto the HPs immersion heater terminals, do we know what the internal circuitry is?

 

The wiring to the HP will also act as an aerial for any interference from the iBoost.

 

OTOH it might all be nothing to worry about. Personally I would spend a tenner on the relay as 0.1% of the system cost and sleep more soundly.

[RichardL]

On 29/03/2023 at 12:12, Nickfromwales said:

I am still in discussion with Octopus re ASHP quotation. We have a spare 32a RCBO in the CU but Octopus say they can not use that but need to take the ASHP electricity supply direct from the external meter box

Possibly quite innocent/more focuses to protect the cost/scope of the job and avoid an escalation into validating the wiring/internal condition of the properties consumer unit.

i.e. M.O. assume the consumer unit is good - don't open it and potentially find that rats nest of ancient wiring that means 2x visits and affects the initial effort/£ estimate.

The meter perhaps feels more like a known quantity/more consistent quality at site since its owned by the grid side rather than the house side?