New Build Ireland, Creaking Posi-joist Floor

[irishhouse]

PLEASE HELP

 

House built in 2022.

 

Posi-joists(unsure of exact brand) with Egger Protect(unsure if 18mm or 22mm). Ductwork from MEV system and pipework for upstairs rads and electrics running between the posi-joists.

 

Besides for the ensuite bathroom upstairs and the main bathroom upstairs, the rest of the 4 bedrooms and the landing are carpet with a 12mm dense underlay under it as I wanted to minimise noise and sound transfer within a posi-joist floor.(the irony)

 

I contacted the builder who brought the carpenter, who installed flooring, back to see what the issue was and carpets lifted. Carpenter says he followed the egger spec which was glue with some screws(see spec attached). We focused on the bedroom with most noise/creaks. He added more screws but didn't reduce noise/creaking. He then cut holes in the flooring in various areas with saw and said was going to frame the piece back in and also use glue. 

 

One issue was a wall tie was sitting on top on the joist as he said he was not allowed notch the joist to make wall tie flush with the posijoist. However the main culprit seemed to be the strongback. At the time of construction the carpenter tells me that nails were used to fixate the strongback to the posi-joists as no exact spec is given. He decided to further secure the strongback to the posi-joists using screws.

 

Furthermore the ducting for the MEV extract system was going through the strongback(semi-circle notched out of the strongback). This was a clearly obvious problem as when the strongback had any bit of movement the pipework and the wood from strongback were clearly making noise. Carpenter said " that should not have been done by the trade that installed piping (ie let the wood touch the pipe directly). See attached picture I got from before the ceilings went up on the ground floor showing the pipework. He placed a polystrene type sheet between the ductwork and the strongback.

 

In addition to this under the "krystal low profile shower tray" there is creaking which I cannot identify if its from creaking under the floorboards or the shower tray movement. I have kept an eye on the grout in the bathroom and I see no cracking so I am of the opinion that the creaking is under the floorbaords ie probably the strongback. Also when you get out of the shower for about 20 mins after, there is noise from what I believe is the waste pipes from the shower and its interaction with the hot water. This noise happens when you stand on certain areas on the ensuite floor tiles. Once the 20 minute-ish mark is up the noise disappears. I have been informed cement board was installed under both the ensuite floor tiles and the main bathroom floor tiles.

 

When he comes out the next day i will get him to clarify:

-whether egger protect is 18mm or 22mm

-brand of posi-joists

 

I know there is alot there but the carpenter is coming back out and before he starts I want to know the following:

 

-Should all ductwork/pipework have been covered insulation so that wood never directly touched ductwork or pipework?

-Is reframing the egger protect floor (after cutting it with saw) the correct approach or should a different method be used(particular tool/saw)? Is ther a change that these frames will become unstable over time?

-Is replacing the whole floor an option ( I believe not)

-Should that wall tie have been sitting on top of joist(sounds like a recipe for disaster for creaking)?

Does the flooring for the first floor go up and then the ceiling of the ground floor go up afterwards?

 

I really hope this forum can help me as I want to ensure the next time he comes out is the last time and he repairs/rectifies it using the right products and tools. As you can imagine the carpenter and builder just want me to go away but that certainly will not be happening

FY_EGGER_Advanced_Fitting_Guide_Web_EN_HEX_2021.pdf

[Gus Potter]

1 hour ago, irishhouse said:

However the main culprit seemed to be the strongback

That's a red herring.

 

What you probably have is that they have have not landed the flooring sheets over a joist and where the have they have not put in noggings.. basic bad workmanship.

 

It seems to me that they are pulling the wool.. ask them.. what does the strong back do structually and what load is it carrying? How does the strong back influence the preformance of the floor sheeting?

 

The Eggar spec says all sheet ends should be supported.

 

My gut feeling is that to save money the have not landed the flooring sheet ends over the joists to save on noggings.

 

If you are geting noise from the pipes.. they probalby have used the wrong brackets.. maybe fixed hard to the timber so when they cool down and shrink the cause a creaking sound.

 

If you want then post few more photos.

[jamiehamy]

Can I ask why the posi joists are propped in that picture? Given one of the propped bits in at a window, it can't be that a stud wall is going in - what's that about?

 

I cannot see on the picture but are the joists resting on a wall place - or do they sit straight on the blockwork?

[Dave Jones]

do a better photo of the underside.

 

I cant see any PU glue running down those pozis and you should see at least some.

 

Properly glued and fitted (no floating joins) never creak. 

 

 

[irishhouse]

14 hours ago, jamiehamy said:

Can I ask why the posi joists are propped in that picture? Given one of the propped bits in at a window, it can't be that a stud wall is going in - what's that about?

 

I cannot see on the picture but are the joists resting on a wall place - or do they sit straight on the blockwork?

 

Thanks for the message. TBH i am not sure. i just took a few pictures of the house mid-build. Is there something to be concerned about here or should i be asking the contractor something in view of this?

[irishhouse]

4 hours ago, Dave Jones said:

do a better photo of the underside.

 

I cant see any PU glue running down those pozis and you should see at least some.

 

Properly glued and fitted (no floating joins) never creak. 

 

 

Thanks for reply. Attached find two further photos, i hope they are of some help.

 

Regarding the glue, I did read that yes you should see glue coming down either side of the joists as plenty of glue is needed but of course I got a "there is enough glue" response from the carpenter. I there anything else you recommend i should state/ask based on these 3 pictures in total i have supplied? I am only learning as i go along here so sorry i cannot be of more assistance to give you more information.

 

The carpenter and building contractor representative kept on saying " all wooden floors creak" but I told them if the specs are followed correctly and services are dealt with correctly, that creaks/squeaks will not happen.

 

I was very annoyed that they took a saw to cutting my egger floorboards but they said " this is all we can do to see what the issues are". Is the framing method to replace the piece they cut out appropriate?

[irishhouse]

[andyj007]

to advoid creaking in floors, they will need to have been glued ..   no need for nails or screws just glue.  

check what the manufacture recommends on their install instructions ..  if not followed get it done correctly now, as it is impossible to correct later  

nail the first row then glue the rest,  screws , nails, or  a combo of both at some point will always lead to creaking unfortunately .

if correct glue used i woudl expect to see  see it everywhere running down the joists, cant seem to see much ?

what did they use glue wise?

 

 

 

 

Edited March 1, 2023 by andyj007

[Andehh]

We are renting the world's cheapest and worst built persimmon new build. It's drafty, hollow, thin single plasterboard on metal stud walls that flex, the pipes knock and bang like crazy.... However.... Over 3 floors and 4 bedroom there is only one single creak coming from bathroom in front of the built in cupboard. I suspect the cupboard (fixed) moving on the semi flexing floor.  It's quite impressive not a single squeeky floor board anywhere. 

 

I'm sure it's called "silent flooring" or something, where all the boards sit on a layer of goopy glue laid on the joists. 

[Dave Jones]

7 hours ago, irishhouse said:

take a picture of each room from directly underneath in both directions (take a pic turn round 180 take another).

 

have they loaded out the floors with blocks for the second lift (hence the acro's?) they may have overloaded and knackered them. Once the metal webs have stretched they are done.

 

looks like they have drilled a wire/pipe through the bottom cord of one of them, this is a total nono and a warranty inspection fail.

 

Get a 6 foot level and check all over the floors, especially where the props are underneath and see if they are dead flat.

 

again better photo's please.

 

 

Edited March 1, 2023 by Dave Jones

[Andehh]

Screw or it WILL squeak when the joists dry and shrink.

Use screws which are NOT threaded all the way to the top.

We did lots of research on this building several thousand houses a year and trying different methods on different plots then taking the feedback. We found that even when glued floor boards move a little and squet on the shank of the screw if they are not threaded all the way to the head.

Glue and screw - screws MUST be threaded all the way to the top. (Our business had the best customer satisfaction ratings in the industry for many years)

(note. We used chipboard floors "weatherdeck", and an engineered beam system called Silent Floor)

 

 

 

 

 

.... From another forum I am on, though this is from a few years ago! 

[irishhouse]

thanks everyone for their comments.

 

@Dave JonesUnfortunately I do not have anymore photos. I have been living in the house for the past year. The above pictures were taken during the build. Regarding the wires which was drilled through the bottom chord, yes I noticed that and am going to bring it up as it is a perfect example of specifications NOT BEING FOLLOWED. 

 

@andyj007yes I agree that more glue should be seen as I have a feel the glue was used sparingly.

 

Should ductwork and pipework running between joists be insulated from touching strongbacks, and other materials, to reduce the different materials rubbing off eachother?

 

Should one expect insulation between the joists(between ground floor and first floor) or is this something that would not normally be done in estate houses?

 

Edited March 5, 2023 by irishhouse
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