ToughButterCup Posted January 23, 2023 Share Posted January 23, 2023 Is this an invention to drive @SteamyTea (further) up the wall? Or worth a bit of thought? I ask because Octopusy (my energy supplier) is pushing it.... I mean, what next Welsh Dressers doubling as a space heater? It shouldn't be allowed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted January 23, 2023 Share Posted January 23, 2023 29 minutes ago, ToughButterCup said: Is this an invention to drive @SteamyTea (further) up the wall? Or worth a bit of thought? Does it mention far infra red? Yes it does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToughButterCup Posted January 23, 2023 Author Share Posted January 23, 2023 23 minutes ago, SteamyTea said: Does it mention far infra red? Yes it does. It is worth a bit more investigation or Yes it does annoy you .... because.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted January 23, 2023 Share Posted January 23, 2023 (edited) 39 minutes ago, ToughButterCup said: It is worth a bit more investigation or Yes it does annoy you .... because.... Because the PR/Marketing people have got hold of it and are misrepresenting the science. To give you an example, today is a bit chilly down here, about 7°C, but sunny, 170 W.m-2 on the horizonal, so higher if face on. Now if I stand out in the sun, and out of the wind (mean speed 0.44 m.s-1, with gusts of 3.1 m.s-1). So at best I probably have 200 W.m-2 of solar energy hitting my 1 m-1 of surface area facing the sun. But I would not stand out here without a jacket, and thermal leggings. Now, if I covered my one main wall, about 2.4m high and 6 m long, I would have ~14 m2 of area. Now let us say that without and wind chill factor at home, I could get away with a quarter of the power (bit of a guess as hard to test, but not a stupid, uneducated guess), that wall would be consuming 700 W and I would, at 100% absorption be getting 50 W of that. But in reality, I would be soaking up a lot less, maybe 20% at best (as good as a PV module), so 10 W. 700 W out, 10 W in. Bargain. As a reality check, yesterday when I was out all day, my house used 21 kWh, of which 3 kWh was for DHW (had a bath before I left). So that is 750 W to heat the whole house (and it was at 22°C when I got in last night, bit warmer than normal) So rather than heat just one room, I heated 2.5 times the area, for 50 W more, and overheated the house. That is a better bargain. Now I know that these 'far infra red' system do not run at the same power as our sun, but if they were at a level that is comparable to what I am already doing, and all the energy get reradiated back, then they would still be lot less efficient, by at least 2.5 times. And I would have a cold house, even if I felt warm. Condensation would become a problem, and there would be many 'shadows' that would be quite cold. Edited January 23, 2023 by SteamyTea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToughButterCup Posted January 24, 2023 Author Share Posted January 24, 2023 Thank you very much indeed @SteamyTea. Very informative. I'll need to think about your reply a bit, but I'll get there eventually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 2 minutes ago, ToughButterCup said: Thank you very much indeed @SteamyTea. Very informative. I'll need to think about your reply a bit, but I'll get there eventually. I could go on and explain how though the unique properties of quantum dynamics all radiative effects are caused by the absorption and release of photons, with the wavelength, which is related to the frequency, is really just how many photons are released as the atoms' electrons, instantaneously drop down to a lower energy state after being excited to higher state. All thermal energy transfer is the movement of light (photon), just how far those particles have to travel, and how much they spread out from the source in that distance. The further they are from the source i.e. this 'far infra red' wallpaper, the less chance they have of hitting another electron and raising its energy level. They may hit at a glancing blow, that causes some of the energy to be imparted, which will raise the temperature a fraction, but because of the exclusion principle, only a tiny bit of energy is imparted, and the original proton may cease to exist, giving up all the remaining energy to a surround atom's electron. There is a very good chance that it will hit a nitrogen atom which is very stable (almost a noble gas), and is around 80% of the air. This will hardly change in temperature at all, it will just bounce about a bit, shake a bit, then go back to rest. So if you want to make a room comfortable for people, heat the air directly, that is what is in contact with humans. Shortening the distance between the heat source and the heat sink is the best way of transferring thermal energy. There is a very short path between the air in contact with our skin, the photons have a much better chance of hitting the electrons that are exposed, or our clothes. That is what does the work, not the frequency per sec, that is just the magnitude of heating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToughButterCup Posted January 25, 2023 Author Share Posted January 25, 2023 (edited) 13 hours ago, SteamyTea said: ... So if you want to make a room comfortable for people, heat the air directly, that is what is in contact with humans. ... Initially I thought that heating a house was complicated : often the subject of myth , common practice and the obscure - if not arcane - delights contained in a plumber's van. 'Irons' , tapered threads, olives, compression nuts, 4 bar, 12.5 degree bends (still dunno what thats about) air admittance manifolds washing up liquid (FFS) spanner rash and to go with that, a set of swearwords that would secretly delight the average nun I remember a post of yours from years ago which revealed (to me anyway) the delights of a £40 electric-oil filled room heater: heats the air directly , costs little to run and nothing to maintain. Simplicity in action. Edited January 25, 2023 by ToughButterCup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 1 hour ago, ToughButterCup said: £40 electric-oil filled room heater Would not have been me that suggested one of them. Fan heater, yes, oil filled is 2 steps removed. Heat electrical element, heat oil, heat case, heat air, which incidentally will just convect up to the ceiling, heat person. 5 Steps. An ordinary convection heater is similar, except it is does not heat any oil, or the case, that is just there for safety. 3 Steps. Fan heater is the same, except it heats from ground level where it disperses quickly. 3 Steps. Trouble with natural convection is that it takes a while for the air at the top of the room, to 'layer down'. The mean room temperature may well be the same, but 27°C, 2.4m from the floor is not as nice as 20°C at floor level, especially if the floor is at 15°C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryE Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 [Mods: removed quoted material from spammer] At the moment we are heating our house roughly 70:30 slab UFH:oil filled rad. The additional rads are enough to ensure that we can keep the house warm heating only in the low rate 0-7AM window. We use 3 rads which jointly radiate just under 2kW. BTW, don't use IR WP to heat ceilings or external walls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToughButterCup Posted January 25, 2023 Author Share Posted January 25, 2023 25 minutes ago, TerryE said: .... BTW, don't use IR WP to heat ceilings ... because ... ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 7 minutes ago, ToughButterCup said: because Shall I start again and explain the surface ratio of walls and people. Or my favourite that temperature is not energy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToughButterCup Posted January 25, 2023 Author Share Posted January 25, 2023 Ouch. Thick as mince me...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryE Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 (edited) 40 minutes ago, ToughButterCup said: because ... ? You end up with a stable thermal gradient: head at 27°C and feet at 18°C. A friend had a flat with ICH (in ceiling heating) rather than UFH. The developer though that putting the heating loop in the ceiling as this was a lot simpler than in a floor screed. There is a good reason to heat from the bottom: This flat was almost unlivable in in the winter. Edited January 25, 2023 by TerryE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryE Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 1 hour ago, TerryE said: [Mods: removed quoted material from spammer] I didn't realise that the Mods considered Ian (@ToughButterCup) a spammer. 🤣 He might have quoted a spammer, but I was quoting his response. But whatever will be 😉 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 48 minutes ago, TerryE said: ICH (in ceiling heating) Was that just a radiator, or a convector, or even a fan coil unit? There would be merit of fitting a FCU in a ceiling, apart from the noise, and the draft. I notice that my local cafe (current closed for refurbishment: had a leaky roof) has combined heating and cooling units in the suspended ceiling. Seems to heat OK, but the cooling is draughty. Noise is less than the coffee machine and general chat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 27 minutes ago, TerryE said: I didn't realise that the Mods considered Ian (@ToughButterCup) a spammer. 🤣 He might have quoted a spammer, but I was quoting his response. The response you quoted tagged the spammer and arose solely as a result of his contribution. If it makes you more comfortable to read "[removed quoted material from spammer]" as "[removed quoted material arising from spammer's contribution]", feel free to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToughButterCup Posted January 25, 2023 Author Share Posted January 25, 2023 ... got me interested in what the spam was now..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeSharp01 Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 12 minutes ago, ToughButterCup said: ... got me interested in what the spam was now..... we would have to break the rules to tell you, but a new member got past the entry checks by being dishonest - trust nobody, not even me, that's my motto, or will be from now on. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 Just now, MikeSharp01 said: trust nobody But trust in the science method. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 16 minutes ago, ToughButterCup said: ... got me interested in what the spam was now..... Me to. There was a GRP man came on yesterday, telling us all the resins had changed. Pointed out that his news was over 30 years old. Then hit the Report button. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 22 minutes ago, ToughButterCup said: ... got me interested in what the spam was now..... It wasn't on this thread, it was on a couple of others. I assume his bland "contribution" here was to make people think he wasn't a spammer. The fact his email address included the same domain name as the website he was spamming was a bit of a clue! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToughButterCup Posted January 25, 2023 Author Share Posted January 25, 2023 1 hour ago, MikeSharp01 said: we would have to break the rules to tell you... But I love spam. I cut it into minute chunks and drop it into stews and tomato sauces - SWMBO has no idea she's been eating it for the last 30 years or more. Small victories eh..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 7 minutes ago, ToughButterCup said: But I love spam On a school camping trip I had to share my tent with tins of Spam. As it was 1976, most of it got a second cooking. Never eaten it since, so 47 years Spam free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryE Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 2 hours ago, SteamyTea said: Was that just a radiator, or a convector, or even a fan coil unit? There would be merit of fitting a FCU in a ceiling, apart from the noise, and the draft. I notice that my local cafe (current closed for refurbishment: had a leaky roof) has combined heating and cooling units in the suspended ceiling. Seems to heat OK, but the cooling is draughty. Noise is less than the coffee machine and general chat. This one was more like think classic UFH pipe loops, but with main runs between the rafters in effect sitting on the plasterboard. Any actively blown system such as the inner FCU part of a standard room bi-block won't have this problem since the blown air sets up a moderately chaotic circulation that mixes the air well. No, I am talking about low temperature systems that heat an extended surface to say room temp + 5°C. Whilst a lot of the heat shedding will be radiative, you also get near-ceiling circulation which can heat the airspace immediately adjacent to horizontal surface. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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