7.5 kw setup self install help needed

[bertybuttface]

3 hours ago, jack said:

 

I'm not a lawyer either, but the second result for Googling "fines for exporting electricity" gives this:

 

https://www.deif.com/land-power/cases/avoid-power-export-fines

 

 

 

But systems aren't specced to avoid overcapacity in the middle of June. I don't have batteries, but with 8.5 kW of PV, our immersion diverter regularly maxes out our hot water cylinder by late morning though the sunniest months of the year. Yet we averaged less than 7 kWh/day in November, and I expect December to be far worse than that. Similar principles apply for batteries.

 

Read your own link, exceeding export limits can result in fines. You seem to have missed where I have written multiple times "if you aren't exporting". Would you please kindly tell me how one could exceed export limits if one was not indeed exporting? Do we not agree that this is impossible?

 

If you don't have batteries then you should look at them. It is likely more cost effective than export. The SolarEdge battery has a 10 year warranty. 

 

Edited December 7, 2022 by bertybuttface

[bertybuttface]

4 hours ago, Dillsue said:

What! The vital service that everyone enjoys is a grid connection and the ability to use electric when they want(importing). Having a PV system connected to the grid isn't a vital thing to have, it's wholly optional

 

The last thing any of us want are free spirits doing their own thing, circumventing the rules and connecting unapproved equipment to the grid. If you dont like the rules go off grid and do your own thing.

 

Remember that a typical PV install is £1000s so a G99 application at £0-300 is peanuts

 

If you want to lick boots and pay for something that was formally free thats up to you.  I'm not saying do whatever you want and stay installing non type approved equipment. I'm saying it is totally unreasonable some are charged £300 and others are not. If that rubs you up the wrong way I'd put it to you that is a you problem not a me problem.

 

[bertybuttface]

4 hours ago, Dillsue said:

And Ill ask yet again, how are you going to prove that?

 

All the DNOs want is a bit of dialogue with you to ensure that your claimed safe system is actually that.

 

I don't need to, I'm grandfathered in under the old system (G97 I think?) but my point is this:

If the DNO want the info, don't charge for the privilege of providing it.

 

There is absolutely no reason (or legal requirement) to have to pay their shitty little charge to get their ridiculously shit export rate. You can simply choose not to export.

 

I repeat yet again for those at the back - there does not seem to be any mechanism to fine you for not jumping through their hoops and paying their little protection racket charge.  

Edited December 7, 2022 by bertybuttface

[bertybuttface]

5 hours ago, joth said:

What do you mean by "you aren't exporting"?

Even if you're not being paid for export, and plan to self consume as much as possible, there's always some amount of export happening on a grid tied inverter from time to time

 

Not true, the SolarEdge one (which I know you also have) can be set to not export at all. Go have a look in SetApp (or you can even set it via Modbus if you don't have access to SetApp).

Edited December 7, 2022 by bertybuttface

[SteamyTea]

18 hours ago, bertybuttface said:

Would you please kindly tell me how one could exceed export limits if one was not indeed exporting? Do we not agree that this is impossible?

No we don't agree. There are too many people about that think they can argue a point without showing their evidence.

You have been asked a few times to show how you are going to prove that you cannot possibly, ever, export. You have failed to do so.

An inverter may well export to just below 1 Wh without it registering on a meter, can still be over 250V.

And still enough to kill.

 

{This post has been edited to remove language inappropriate for the forum.}

[joth]

2 hours ago, bertybuttface said:

 

Not true, the SolarEdge one (which I know you also have) can be set to not export at all. Go have a look in SetApp (or you can even set it via Modbus if you don't have access to SetApp).

Not true. Even if you turn on export limitation, it uses periodic sampling so has a time delay between noticing that there is export happening and modulating the output downwards. There's a reaction time lag. I can easily see this these momentary spikes using an alternative current monitoring device. So at times, it does indeed export. 

Furthermore it's far from infallible, and any communication failure from the CT clamp to modbus meter to inverter would leave it in permanent export state. So it's absolutely possible to export even with export disabled.

 

 

Edited December 7, 2022 by joth

[Dillsue]

4 hours ago, bertybuttface said:

 

If you want to lick boots and pay for something that was formally free thats up to you.

At what point in time was a grid connection(the vital service) ever free?

[bertybuttface]

13 hours ago, Dillsue said:

At what point in time was a grid connection(the vital service) ever free?

 

At what point in time were G100 applications charged for (prior to now)?

 

15 hours ago, joth said:

Not true. Even if you turn on export limitation, it uses periodic sampling so has a time delay between noticing that there is export happening and modulating the output downwards. There's a reaction time lag. I can easily see this these momentary spikes using an alternative current monitoring device. So at times, it does indeed export. 

Furthermore it's far from infallible, and any communication failure from the CT clamp to modbus meter to inverter would leave it in permanent export state. So it's absolutely possible to export even with export disabled.

 

 

 

Yes and no, the inverter is a modbus client and the meter is a modbus server, the inverter polls the meter so would know that it could no longer connect. It would limit export in this instance (this is covered in Solar Edge's online course).

As for reaction lag you are correct but this would hardly be considered generation above the levels that would get you fined. It corrects within less than a second. I'll try and get some decent graphs of this to show you.

 

16 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

No we don't agree. There are too many pricks about that think they can argue a point without showing their evidence.

You have been asked a few times to show how you are going to prove that you cannot possibly, ever, export. You have failed to do so.

An inverter may well export to just below 1 Wh without it registering on a meter, can still be over 250V.

And still enough to kill.

 

There is no point in me continuing to discuss this with you if you are going to be like that. Feel free to reply but you won't receive any more interaction from me

 

Edited December 8, 2022 by bertybuttface

[joth]

23 minutes ago, bertybuttface said:

It would limit export in this instance (this is covered in Solar Edge's online course)

Hmmm if it looses communication it doesn't know how much is being exported so wouldn't be able to export limit,  it would just have to shut off the output altogether.

Further, if the CT clamp is removed from the outgoing tail and placed somewhere else, no error will be raised (as communication is still intact) thus it will allow full export as the invert is then blind to what's happening 

I agree the degree of export due to polling time lag is negligible, however these points do contradict your prior claim that it is impossible for an export limited inverter to export. 

[umer]

On 04/12/2022 at 21:05, bertybuttface said:

@umerDiamond core cutters aren't cheap but once you've got one jobs like this are suddenly rather simple. 

I bought a diamond core drill when installing the extractor fan in bathroom. But for this I needed a smaller one,also I needed to buy a vacuum pump. I found a local fgas person willing to supply and install a 5 kw mitsubishi heavy split AC for 1600. So I went for it. But still I think if the installation charges are more reasonable for simpler installs than a lot more people will be able to get heating this winter for cheap.

[bertybuttface]

49 minutes ago, joth said:

Hmmm if it looses communication it doesn't know how much is being exported so wouldn't be able to export limit,  it would just have to shut off the output altogether.

Further, if the CT clamp is removed from the outgoing tail and placed somewhere else, no error will be raised (as communication is still intact) thus it will allow full export as the invert is then blind to what's happening 

I agree the degree of export due to polling time lag is negligible, however these points do contradict your prior claim that it is impossible for an export limited inverter to export. 

 

Not sure how it works with CT clamps but remember that is only one method. SolarEdge sell an inline meter as well as a CT clamp based one. You can also use any other Growatt compatible meter. If you feel like trying it I'd be interested to know how the inverter responds?

My original claim is the power company shouldn't be charging £300 for the privilege of filling out one form. My subsequent claim is that if you are export limited and using kit from a reputable supplier you aren't a threat to the power grid. This charge is unfair and unreasonable IMO.

If you check G100 it even allows you to be out of spec for up to 5 seconds so polling time lag clearly does not leave you in a state that they are concerned about. 

Edited December 8, 2022 by bertybuttface

[bertybuttface]

23 hours ago, Dillsue said:

And Ill ask yet again, how are you going to prove that?

 

All the DNOs want is a bit of dialogue with you to ensure that your claimed safe system is actually that.

 

The dialog is somewhat understandable, a nominal fee even, but £300 is coming it a bit don't you think?

Don't forget those new to solar have zero government subsidies, a very low export rate, a large upfront cost and now they get hit with this extra fee.

We charge overly large extra fees on things we want to discourage (e.g. a speeding fine).

Do we really want to be discouraging solar uptake? 

Edited December 8, 2022 by bertybuttface

[Nick Thomas]

Almost nobody installs solar. It's something like 2% of domestic households - and almost invariably the richer ones.

 

I've not looked it up, but I imagine very few of those who do install solar need or want more than you can sensibly put onto a 3.6kW inverter (say, up to 6kWp of panels). So almost everyone who does, or might want to, is well served by the free G98 process.

 

The "deterrent" effect of a £300 fee to the thin slice of rich households that do want it can best be described as insignificant.

[Marvin]

Hi @Nick Thomas

40 minutes ago, Nick Thomas said:

Almost nobody installs solar. It's something like 2% of domestic households - and almost invariably the richer ones. Not all properties are suitable for a PV installation.

 

I've not looked it up, but I imagine very few of those who do install solar need or want more than you can sensibly put onto a 3.6kW inverter (say, up to 6kWp of panels). Well, we wanted more than 3.6kW because we charge our car and use it for the ASHP. 

 

So almost everyone who does, or might want to, is well served by the free G98 process. Agreed, however the process above the 3.6kW inverter is for safety. 

 

The "deterrent" effect of a £300 fee to the thin slice of rich households that do want it can best be described as insignificant. We are not a rich household and installed the PV to protect our retirement future costs as the government had obviously failed to protect our future power supply for years and years and years.

 

 

 

 

[Dillsue]

2 hours ago, bertybuttface said:

At what point in time were G100 applications charged for (prior to now)?

Here's a relevant doc from 2014 talking about charges in section E

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.spenergynetworks.co.uk/userfiles/file/8_G59%2050kW%20Full%20June%202014%20v2.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjwzqLUzun7AhXYg1wKHWweD-o4ChAWegQIGRAB&usg=AOvVaw3jnrnxUCogZAlulqhDPPE9

 

 If youve got "grandfather rights" for your system why all the fuss

[Dillsue]

1 hour ago, bertybuttface said:

 

The dialog is somewhat understandable, a nominal fee even, but £300 is coming it a bit don't you think?

You need to listen and think about what people are saying. If you did that, it would be blindingly obvious that I think £300 is a reasonable charge. I've paid it without moaning

[bertybuttface]

1 hour ago, Dillsue said:

Here's a relevant doc from 2014 talking about charges in section E

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.spenergynetworks.co.uk/userfiles/file/8_G59%2050kW%20Full%20June%202014%20v2.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjwzqLUzun7AhXYg1wKHWweD-o4ChAWegQIGRAB&usg=AOvVaw3jnrnxUCogZAlulqhDPPE9

 

 If youve got "grandfather rights" for your system why all the fuss

 

Just because I didn't have to pay it doesn't mean I think others should. 

 

1 hour ago, Dillsue said:

You need to listen and think about what people are saying. If you did that, it would be blindingly obvious that I think £300 is a reasonable charge. I've paid it without moaning

 

Ah I see, you had to pay it so others should have to pay it.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality

[Nick Thomas]

@marvin from the detail in your post, i'm perfectly happy to put you in the "rich" category. You're welcome to fill in https://ifs.org.uk/tools_and_resources/where_do_you_fit_in (and an equivalent for household wealth if needed) if you disagree.

 

Curious how blind people can be to their own financial position. If you're spending, I dunno, 8K on solar and 10-50K on an EV, the chances of an extra £300 in admin fees dissuading you from going ahead on those purchases are basically nil.

 

[bertybuttface]

8 minutes ago, Nick Thomas said:

@marvin from the detail in your post, i'm perfectly happy to put you in the "rich" category. You're welcome to fill in https://ifs.org.uk/tools_and_resources/where_do_you_fit_in (and an equivalent for household wealth if needed) if you disagree.

 

Curious how blind people can be to their own financial position. If you're spending, I dunno, 8K on solar and 10-50K on an EV, the chances of an extra £300 in admin fees dissuading you from going ahead on those purchases are basically nil.

 

 

Regardless of whether someone is rich or poor the charge is unfair. If charges didn't put people off things why do we use them as fines for behaviour society tries to discourage?

It is also even more manifestly unfair in that it is a postcode lottery but the same could be said about power costs in general.

Edited December 8, 2022 by bertybuttface

[Nick Thomas]

If it's not paid for by those requesting it, it is instead paid for by spreading the costs among everyone serviced by a particular DNO.

 

Which option is fairer for a low-volume procedure whose benefits accrue to the richest in society?

[Dillsue]

1 hour ago, bertybuttface said:

My original claim is the power company shouldn't be charging £300 for the privilege of filling out one form. 

Exactly what do you think the DNO does with a G99 application....read one form and nothing else??

In my case SPENs engineer dug out the archive details of our supply. Accurately measured cable runs from satellite images. Ran a number of calculations based on a variety of assumed overhead and undergound cable sizes. Dug out pole mounted transformer details. Called me twice and wrote 2 technical emails. All of that was within a few days of an informal enquiry from me and without me paying a penny. The fee became payable when all the work theyd already done needed formalizing for them to then price up the reinforcement needed which was FOC to me.

I think you are living in cloud cuckoo land if you think a commercial organisation should do that for free

[bertybuttface]

20 minutes ago, Nick Thomas said:

If it's not paid for by those requesting it, it is instead paid for by spreading the costs among everyone serviced by a particular DNO.

 

Which option is fairer for a low-volume procedure whose benefits accrue to the richest in society?

 

There is a 3rd option of the cost being met by government from tax revenue. In my opinion the fairest system would involve the government providing interest free loans to anyone that wanted to fit solar but we are getting way off topic.

 

The simple fact remains that some DNOs do not charge so these fees are likely unnecessary.

[Nick Thomas]

Sure, there's always an argument for that, and I'd certainly be for it. In the meantime, though, this £300 is neither here nor there for adoption.

 

[bertybuttface]

2 minutes ago, Nick Thomas said:

Sure, there's always an argument for that, and I'd certainly be for it. In the meantime, though, this £300 is neither here nor there for adoption.

 

 

I think we will have to agree to disagree, any financial penalty works as a disincentive. It might only put a handful of people off but that is still a handful of people too many. 

[Nick Thomas]

Sure, there will be a certain number of individuals, which will be insignificant when expressed as a proportion of total installs, actual or potential.