YALANCT (Yet Another Loxone And Network Cabling Thread)

[Dan F]

7 minutes ago, Rob99 said:

If you have the dimmers in the cabinet you need at least 1mm2 cores to the LED strips.

This works with 5m of 12W/m LED and a 10m feed, but if any of these three parameters are much higher, you really need more than 1mm2 or move the driver closer.  Local drivers saves calculating voltage drop of course.

 

Also, if you have an LED >5m and/or going around multiple walls, you really need to run the multiple strips in parallel rather than in series.  So if you are going around all the way around a 3mx4m room (depending on the LED product you use and recommended maximum length) you'll probably want to 2-4 feeds.  You could use a single chunky feed and then split off in to 4 somewhere in the bedroom, or you could run 4 thinner cables all back to the same driver (assuming you are withing wattage of driver).

 

4 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

 https://shop.loxone.com/enuk/rgbw-24v-compact-dimmer-tree.html?

These save you running 5 core, but you still need to be careful with voltage drop as they are 24v in, not 230v.

 

[Thorfun]

Just now, Dan F said:

This works with 5m of 12W/m LED and a 10m feed, but if any of these three parameters are much higher, you really need more than 1mm2 or move the driver closer.  Local drivers saves calculating voltage drop of course.

 

Also, if you have an LED >5m and/or going around multiple walls, you really need to run the multiple strips in parallel rather than in series.  So if you are going around all the way around a 3mx4m room (depending on the LED product you use and recommended maximum length) you'll probably want to 2-4 feeds.  You could use a single chunky feed and then split off in to 4 somewhere in the bedroom, or you could run 4 thinner cables all back to the same driver (assuming you are withing wattage of driver).

 

These save you running 5 core, but you still need to be careful with voltage drop as they are 24v in, not 230v.

 

the strips will be run around 2 walls in each bedroom in an 'L' shape. one wall is 4m and the other 6m in length. so would I need 2 x compact RGBW dimmers per room then? 5m of LED into each? seems excessive!

 

any voltage drop calculations I will leave to my electrician so will run any potential solution by him to check the calculations!

[Dan F]

7 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

the strips will be run around 2 walls in each bedroom in an 'L' shape. one wall is 4m and the other 6m in length. so would I need 2 x compact RGBW dimmers per room then? 5m of LED into each? seems excessive!

Single RGBW compact (assuming total watts <200W), but wire up the two LED tapes to this seperatly.  Rather than i) go around the corner with one 10m length ii) connect end of first tape to the start of the a second tape.   This is general rule though, depends on max lengths recommended by LED tape.

 

Using the Loxone RGBW tape as an example only. You'd have a total of 170W for your 10 m, which would be fine with one RGBW compact.  This is 7A though, so you'd need at least 1.5mm 24v feed.

Edited November 8, 2022 by Dan F

[Thorfun]

3 minutes ago, Dan F said:

Single RGBW compact (assuming total watts <200W), but wire up the two runs to this seperatly.  Rather than i) go around the corner with one length ii) connect end of first tap to the second.   This is general rule though, depends on max lengths recommended by LED tape.

ok. so each strip has a T&E back to the compact RGBW dimmer with both T&E cables terminating at the dimmer? that would be wiring in parallel, right?

 

I did a quick google and found these RGBW LED strips that say 10m = 192W.

 

https://www.led-lighthouse.co.uk/shop/led-strip-lights/rgbw-led-strip-lights/24v-rgbw-led-strip-lights-ip65/

 

so, in theory, I could get a 10m length of these and wire with a single T&E to the compact?

Edited November 8, 2022 by Thorfun
parallel wiring question

[Dan F]

6 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

ok. so each strip has a T&E back to the compact RGBW dimmer with both T&E cables terminating at the dimmer? that would be wiring in parallel, right?

 

yes, except it'd be 5-core you need between tapes and RGBW dimmer.  RGBW -> (5-core) - > tape 1,  RGBW -> (5-core) - > tape 2.

 

6 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

so, in theory, I could get a 10m length of these and wire with a single T&E to the compact?

You don't need the E and something flexible may be easier to work with than standard T&E IMO, but yes.  In this example though, you'd have over 6%/1.5v voltage drop if you used 1.5mm, so you'd need to go once size up for 190W.

Edited November 8, 2022 by Dan F

[Dan F]

19 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

any voltage drop calculations I will leave to my electrician so will run any potential solution by him to check the calculations!

Our electrician did all LED strips (some of them 5m+ long) back to the plant room in 0.75mm2 to start with!  Only when I showed them my voltage drop caclulations did they agree to run 230v/DALI feeds to various locations to have the drivers more localized.  So it is worth understanding the basics and checking whatever they do makes sense.

Edited November 8, 2022 by Dan F

[Thorfun]

2 minutes ago, Dan F said:

yes, except it'd be 5-core you need between tapes and RGBW dimmer.  RGBW -> (5-core) - > tape 1,  RGBW -> (5-core) - > tape 2.

 

You don't need the E and something flexible may be easier to work with than standard T&E IMO, but yes.  In this example though, you'd have over 6%/1.5v voltage drop if you used 1.5mm, so you'd need to go once size up for 190W.

ok thanks. so, in my mind, the second option using a single 10m run of RGBW strip sounds a lot simpler. a single Cat6A from Loxone cabinet to the compact dimmer in the loft void above the room and a suitably sized cable from the compact dimmer to the strip.

 

I presume that the Cat6A cable from the cabinet to the dimmer will take the power the dimmer requires? just like any other Tree device like a Touch or presence sensor?

[Dan F]

15 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

ok thanks. so, in my mind, the second option using a single 10m run of RGBW strip sounds a lot simpler. a single Cat6A from Loxone cabinet to the compact dimmer in the loft void above the room and a suitably sized cable from the compact dimmer to the strip.

 

I presume that the Cat6A cable from the cabinet to the dimmer will take the power the dimmer requires? just like any other Tree device like a Touch or presence sensor?

Maybe I confused you.  You'd need:

- Almost certainly two lengths of LED tape wired in parallel (not one length)

- 2 lengths of 5-core flex from a single RGBW Dimmer to each length of tape (this can probably be 0.75/1mm because i) it's close ii) each length is only half total watts).

- Loxone tree to the RGBW Dimmer

- 2-core 2.5mm2 from 24v PSU in pant room to RGBW Dimmer (assuming 190W worth of tape).   (this is independant of if you use 1x10m tape or 2x5m tapes in parrlelel as total watts/amps is the same)

 

To avoid the 10m of 2.5mm2 you either need a 24v PSU closer to the RGBW Dimmer, lower power LED strips, or you could look at using a 230v RGBW driver (would need to be DALI or DMX) in the bedroom rather than the Loxone Tree one.

 

(This is all subject to spec of the tape you source though.  watts/m and max length primarily)

 

Edited November 8, 2022 by Dan F

[Thorfun]

ok. so I am a little confused (electrics get me that way!). let's assume I've decided to go with the Loxone Compact RGBW Dimmer Tree solution. decision made. and let's also assume I've decided to go with 10m of these RGBW Led Strips (https://www.led-lighthouse.co.uk/shop/led-strip-lights/rgbw-led-strip-lights/24v-rgbw-led-strip-lights-ip65/). another decision made.

 

from this diagram in the Compact dimmer datasheet:

 

it shows a 24V power supply and a twisted pair for the Tree connection. Now, please correct me if I'm wrong, but can't the 24V supply be supplied by the Cat6A cable on the orange/white pair? just like a Loxone Touch? and then I would need a 5-core cable of sufficient size taking in to account the voltage drop run from the compact dimmer to the RGBW strip (as shown in the diagram above)? 

 

if all of that is correct then my confusion is around @Rob99's comment about needing a T&E and Cat6.

 

57 minutes ago, Rob99 said:

I were doing it now I would definitely use the compact dimmer trees located remotely near the LED strips. You then only need a single T&E (for the 24v) and a cat6 tree connection to each dimmer.

 

can you see where my confusion is?

[joth]

I ran 1.5mm2 5 core flex back to the Loxone cabinet. (The exact stuff you'd use for Dali)

In the cabinet I have 2x 24 channel DMX pwm constant voltage decoders.

https://m.aliexpress.com/item/4001254896720.html

 

As well as driving led strips, they do some track lighting, and drive a dozen SSRs in place of mechanical relays.

 

Only challenge is getting a meaty enough 24V PSU. The new Loxone ups one, while pricy, does look a good one stop shop for powering everything. (Except the knx and Dali bus, damnit)

 

 

[Thorfun]

8 minutes ago, joth said:

The new Loxone ups one, while pricy, does look a good one stop shop for powering everything. (Except the knx and Dali bus, damnit)

this?

 

https://shop.loxone.com/enuk/power-supply-backup.html

 

that is rather expensive. will take a look though as I'm a sucker for simplicity.

[Dan F]

39 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

it shows a 24V power supply and a twisted pair for the Tree connection. Now, please correct me if I'm wrong, but can't the 24V supply be supplied by the Cat6A cable on the orange/white pair?

No because voltage drop would be 10v (assuming no other loads) and RGBW compact would only get 14v.  This is why Loxone do the tree cable, but there would still be limit on how much lighting you could put on a single run of this.

 

39 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

I would need a 5-core cable of sufficient size taking in to account the voltage drop run from the compact dimmer to the RGBW strip (as shown in the diagram above)? 

Yes, but this is close so you could almost certainly use 5-core 0.75mm for this, maybes less.

[Thorfun]

afternoon all,

 

I think I'm improving my knowledge around the whole 24V led strips subject and my attention has moved to the power supplies required for my setup. As if I can get a handle on that I can decide if I want remote or central (or a combination of both) drivers.

 

IF I've got an understanding of it all I calculate that I will need a total of around 1.3kW PSU!! here's my spreadsheet table showing the calculations:

 

 

anything that says 'Powered by Miniserver' isn't included in the totals at the bottom for the Total Watts and Amps. 

 

have I got this completely wrong or does this seem about right for a system of this size?

 

I could, in theory, move some of the LED strips to have remote drivers so they're powered by 230V cable like this that @Dan F sent me https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/led-drivers/7066684.

 

but I presume I will still need a control mechanism for the remote drivers, like a DMX driver (https://www.downlightsdirect.co.uk/dmx-driver-constant-voltage.html) but if I didn't want to use DMX how else would I control the lights? would that need to be a Loxone Dimmer extension (https://shop.loxone.com/enuk/dimmer-extension.html)?

 

ps. I do have a Whitewing mains dimmer 16-channel (http://whitewing.co.uk/acdim.html)

Edited November 9, 2022 by Thorfun
added ps.

[Dan F]

1 hour ago, Thorfun said:

I will need a total of around 1.3kW PSU

I don't think anyone typically tries to use a single PSU for everything.

 

1 hour ago, Thorfun said:

anything that says 'Powered by Miniserver'

Your miniserver will still need 24v power. So you need to plan for a PSU for minserver and all extensions.

 

1 hour ago, Thorfun said:

have I got this completely wrong or does this seem about right for a system of this size?

Sound right to me.  Most of this is lighting.

 

1 hour ago, Thorfun said:

I could, in theory, move some of the LED strips to have remote drivers so they're powered by 230V

Where you put your PSU's depends on i) how much space you do/don't in cabinet or plant room ii) how long the 24v runs would be if you did centralize the PSU's iii) if you had locations around the house that are more localized to LED's where you can hide kit.  I don't think there is one right answer, and you might find a mix works best for you.

 

1 hour ago, Thorfun said:

if I didn't want to use DMX how else would I control the lights?

You could use the Loxone RGBW Compact with the meanwell PSU if you didn't want to use DMX/DALI.  The loxone dimmer extension is for 230v dimming only AFAIK and wouldn't support RGBW or give PWM output needed for LED strip.

 

1 hour ago, Thorfun said:

ps. I do have a Whitewing mains dimmer 16-channel (http://whitewing.co.uk/acdim.html)

You can use this for pendants/wall-lights/5A circuits etc. which are likely to be 230v.

Edited November 9, 2022 by Dan F

[Thorfun]

1 hour ago, Dan F said:

I don't think anyone typically tries to use a single PSU for everything.

sure. was looking at multiple smaller Wattage PSUs

 

1 hour ago, Dan F said:

Your miniserver will still need 24v power. So you need to plan for a PSU for minserver and all extensions.

yeah, I've got the miniserver needing and all the extensions needing 23W. so would just assume that would be covered by one of the many 24V PSUs. but, you're right, I might as well just add it all up together!

 

1 hour ago, Dan F said:

Sound right to me.  Most of this is lighting.

cool. yeah, but that should be all of the 24V leds in the house. 15 warm white and 2 RGBW (lighting designer said I couldn't have more RGBW (as did SWMBO  😞 )

 

1 hour ago, Dan F said:

You could use the Loxone RGBW Compact with the meanwell PSU if you didn't want to use DMX/DALI.  The loxone dimmer extension is for 230v dimming only AFAIK and wouldn't support RGBW or give PWM output needed for LED strip.

ok. thanks. I did read that report on PWM frequencies you sent and it was quite interesting but, unless I read it incorrectly, anything between 90Hz and 1250Hz can all produce flicker and it's down to the driver designer to ensure that a maximum percentage is allowed. so there's no evidence that the 123Hz of the Loxone drivers will produce flicker. but it's something I'll bare in mind.

 

1 hour ago, Dan F said:

You can use this for pendants/wall-lights/5A circuits etc. which are likely to be 230v.

that was the plan! just thought I'd add it for completeness as it might've come up as a potential solution. 😉 

[Dan F]

@Thorfun Other option for control via DMX could be these: http://whitewing.co.uk/rgbdim48.html (there is even a 96 channel one too!). This might be a good option if you wanted to centralize everything and run (correctly-sized) 5-core to RGBW strips and (correctly-sized) 2-core to white strips.

 

2 hours ago, Thorfun said:

ok. thanks. I did read that report on PWM frequencies you sent and it was quite interesting but, unless I read it incorrectly, anything between 90Hz and 1250Hz can all produce flicker and it's down to the driver designer to ensure that a maximum percentage is allowed. so there's no evidence that the 123Hz of the Loxone drivers will produce flicker. but it's something I'll bare in mind.

 

This article talks about the Locone RGBW Compact, it's PWM frequency, and DMX alterantives from AliExpress. https://smarthome.exposed/24v-dmx-dimmers/

I'm using the EldoLED LinearDrive product which my LED tape supplier recommended and supplied.  Mine are DALI, but looks like they do 1 and 4-channel DMX ones too.

Edited November 9, 2022 by Dan F

[joth]

My guess is, with some reasonable diversity estimates, the new Loxone 1kW PSU would actually power all that lot just fine. Whether you want to do it all central is another call of course, but it would mean ~everything important is covered by the battery backups.

 

[Thorfun]

1 hour ago, Dan F said:

@Thorfun Other option for control via DMX could be these: http://whitewing.co.uk/rgbdim48.html (there is even a 96 channel one too!). This might be a good option if you wanted to centralize everything and run (correctly-sized) 5-core to RGBW strips and (correctly-sized) 2-core to white strips.

I did look at these but the power rating per channel seemed low (48W @ 24V) so I discounted it, but that's probably me not knowing what I'm talking about! Also, each connector only has 4 pins so how does that work with RGBW? how does the power get sent to the led strip? I read through the detailed documentation on the website but I couldn't understand how it all worked. 🤦‍♂️

 

1 hour ago, Dan F said:

This article talks about the Locone RGBW Compact, it's PWM frequency, and DMX alterantives from AliExpress. https://smarthome.exposed/24v-dmx-dimmers/

I'm using the EldoLED LinearDrive product which my LED tape supplier recommended and supplied.  Mine are DALI, but looks like they do 1 and 4-channel DMX ones too.

thanks. will take a read.

[Thorfun]

52 minutes ago, joth said:

My guess is, with some reasonable diversity estimates, the new Loxone 1kW PSU would actually power all that lot just fine. Whether you want to do it all central is another call of course, but it would mean ~everything important is covered by the battery backups.

 

yeah, you know I was looking at it and even at £668+VAT it seemed reasonable when looking at the cost of multiple smaller PSUs especially when something like this Mean Well DIN PSU (https://uk.farnell.com/mean-well/wdr-240-24/power-supply-ac-dc-24v-5a/dp/2815676) is £230 on it's own! 

 

but I was concerned about it only having 7 outputs as I have 15 WW LED strips. but, I presume I can run more than one strip off one output as long as it doesn't exceed 10A/240W, right? so with an LED strip that is 9W/m I could, in theory, run 5 x 5m strips from one output? 

[Thorfun]

10 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

like this Mean Well DIN PSU (https://uk.farnell.com/mean-well/wdr-240-24/power-supply-ac-dc-24v-5a/dp/2815676) is £230 on it's own! 

I guess something like this would do (I believe @joth has one in his cabinet).

 

https://uk.farnell.com/mean-well/hdr-150-24/power-supply-ac-dc-24v-6-25a/dp/3265809

 

at £44 each I'd need 8 so cheaper than the Loxone Power Supply and Backup but I have a feeling that 8 of these will take up a lot more space in the cabinet! And also not have the reporting capabilities that the Loxone one does, e.g. per output power usage.

Edited November 9, 2022 by Thorfun
gramatical mistake

[joth]

3 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

I presume I can run more than one strip off one output as long as it doesn't exceed 10A/240W, right?

Of course, it's like having 7 separate PSUs to subdivide as you like. E.g  maybe keep one for audio, one for everything else in the cabinet, and the others for external devices. Split them up so if a fuse pops you don't loose an entire floor of lighting. Keep things critical away from nice to haves. Etc

 

It will provide up to 1440W for 10s, and is on the tree bus so will tell you live loading and if it's overloaded so you could even program logic to respond and cull the least important accent lighting on the very unlikely chance everything is on at once.

Unconventional but actually quite cute 

https://www.loxone.com/enen/kb/power-supply-backup-block/

[joth]

36 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

I guess something like this would do (I believe @joth has one in his cabinet).

 

https://uk.farnell.com/mean-well/hdr-150-24/power-supply-ac-dc-24v-6-25a/dp/3265809

 

at £44 each I'd need 8 so cheaper than the Loxone Power Supply and Backup but I have a feeling that 8 of these will take up a lot more space in the cabinet! And also not have the reporting capabilities that the Loxone one does, e.g. per output power usage.

Yes I currently have one of those, and also a noisy as heck cheapo 1kW supply for LEDs that I only fire up when actually needed. 

The meanwell you link had very low standby current so probably no need to power them off even if unloaded (all lights out). But it also has negligible power on time and very quiet, and fits a future automation cabinet well. Just will take up a couple rows as you say 

 

If doing it again, I'd either do the Loxone battery PSU for one stop simplicity, or roll my own using AGM batteries and 24V regulator, and perhaps drive LEDs direct from the batteries (esp any constant current fixtures) to avoid the overhead of regulating them... Possibly with some logic to trim their brightness dynamically based on the battery level if necessary.

 

Edited November 9, 2022 by joth

[Thorfun]

11 minutes ago, joth said:

Of course, it's like having 7 separate PSUs to subdivide as you like. E.g  maybe keep one for audio, one for everything else in the cabinet, and the others for external devices. Split them up so if a fuse pops you don't loose an entire floor of lighting. Keep things critical away from nice to haves. Etc

 

It will provide up to 1440W for 10s, and is on the tree bus so will tell you live loading and if it's overloaded so you could even program logic to respond and cull the least important accent lighting on the very unlikely chance everything is on at once.

Unconventional but actually quite cute 

https://www.loxone.com/enen/kb/power-supply-backup-block/

I think I'm leaning this way tbh. more research is required.

[Rob99]

I have a preference for using larger power supplies connected in parallel and then seperately fusing each 24v circuit. This balances the load and provides some redundancy. Also means you don't have to define which circuits are fed from which power supply so much more flexible and if one dies (rare I know!) you can disconnect and swap it out without half your circuits not working or needing to rewire anything.

 

This is how I generally do it..........

 

 

[joth]

8 hours ago, Rob99 said:

 

This is how I generally do it..........

 

 

 

Nice. Those supplies are 128.5mm deep. Looks like you mounted a custom rail directly to the back plate to fit them, and presumably this is all behind a blanked off cabinet cover section so not visible to the user.

Do you worry about ventilation for them, or do they run pretty cool even when loaded?

What's the standby power draw like with them all powered on but unloaded?

 

Cheers for the pointer