Leak in bath screen hinge

[Dbas]

Thanks all.

Just checked, it is a shower bath that we ordered: https://victoriaplum.com/product/richmond-1600-x-700-shower-bath-with-curved-single-screen-and-rail-ricsb167001

The contractor is reluctant to email Victoria Plum that it's faulty, as he says they would send people out to test it, and it would be time consuming, but I note what Nick said about the bath already been installed.

 

@Nickfromwales I searched on Victoria plum and could only see straight / P-shaped / L-shaped baths. Is a D-shaped similar to one of those? (Sorry, never had to consider all these in rented properties before!) Our bathroom is tiny though, and we won't have the space for anything wider than a straight bath. If wedging the edge up might cause the bath to crack over time or cause other ends to lift up, should we change the bath to a steel one (does material make a difference?). 

 

If that's really the best option that we'll fork out the cash for another bath, but I imagine it'll be tricky to re-tile and change baths at no extra cost (except for bath itself). Should it be so?

[Nickfromwales]

Changing to a steel bath is pointless, and I would advise against one TBH, especially in a rental. 

Maybe you'd be better off with a short fixed glass panel, say 200-300mm, and a curtain. 

That screen will only get worse every day it's used and will need changing periodically so best to seal the bath properly, fit a fixed screen properly and compliment with a good quality rail and curtain which can be renewed for £20 every time you refresh the bathroom / change tennants. 

[Dbas]

Thanks @Nickfromwales I should have been clearer sorry -- I meant I never had to look into all the different options of baths / screen / curtain etc when I was in a rented property. But this flat is mine, just gotten it! And wanting the bathroom to be done right as I plan to stay here long term

[Nickfromwales]

Ah sorry. . 

Something like this then ?

Link

Oh, and dont pay a penny more until bottom tiles removed and the bath is sealed to the wall.  

[Dbas]

Thanks @Nickfromwales, I've just checked out the link, didn't know there were shower screen/ curtain combos!

 

Regarding the dip in the bath, what would be the best solution though? If a wedge might cause unnatural stress on the bath over time, then would just sealing the bath to the wall work?

 

Such a small problem, but so much hassle, lol. Thanks very much to all for the input and insight.

 

[Nickfromwales]

How much dip is there ? 2-3mm? More?

[Dbas]

Ack, it didn't occur to me to ask. When the contractor used the spirit level to measure, the bubble moved to the left, so the edge of the bubble still touched the left black line.

Sorry that's not a very precise answer...

[Nickfromwales]

Does water pool there and stay there, or pool there and run away ?

[Dbas]

Pools and stays there in the corner.

[Triassic]

I think the pooling water is a red herring, the water in the photo is leaking from the hinge.  The last shower screen I fitted had a U shaped cut out in the hinge, this U shaped cut out as there to channel any water that got into the hinge back into the bath.. I've seen these cut out fitted the wrong way round in the past, thus allowing water to leak out of the bath.

[Nickfromwales]

Not necessarily a red herring, as any water should, to a reasonable degree, eventually run down the deck and into the bath / drain. I do expect some water to sit there, where the tiles meet the bath, but only what the surface tension of the water will promote rather than a pool. 

If, and its a big if, the bath only has a 2-3mm dog ear then maybe bonding a suitably shaped plywood section up into the offending underside, jacking it up slightly with a batten wedged between it and the floor ( sitting on an off cut of 4x2 so it doesn't go south ) will get you off the hook. Don't for a second attempt to wedge anything under the actual acrylic of the bath ( eg without a bonded on plywood section ) as the batten will just punch through the bath over time. Use Sikaflex EBT ( NOT silicone ) for all the fundamental sealing work, available in clear and white, and for bonding the plywood packer to the bath underside, but use silicone as the final cosmetic / splash-proofing seal. 

Needless to say, the bottom course of tiles and the screen need to come off to do all of this. 

Its probably best if you sit down with your installer, over a cup of tea,  and state that this ( you getting a resolve ) isn't going to go away, and decide how you can both work to an amicable resolve. Taking the tiles off to seal the bath to the wall should be at the fitters expense, but maybe best to offer an olive branch and pay for the tiles / adhesive / grout if they are willing to do the propping-up for the corner of the bath etc at the same time. They should have identified the bath being unfit when they installed it, as they'd have had to put a level on the end of the bath to set it into place and level it initially, so there's no excuses there just a bit of due process that's been overlooked as a minor, but is now a major. Fwiw, no acrylic baths are perfectly flat and all have slight dog ears, unless it's a Trojan cast, ( 8mm and thicker ), reinforced bath, which are nigh on perfectly flat. These can be spotted quite easily as the underside is usually green not white. Link This is the kind of bath I'd fit if having a shower over the bath   

Maybe time to ask about a possible returns and in-store credit at the least with VP as its not normal to have to retrospectively botch a solution to make the thing for for purpose.  

 

[AliG]

I took some pictures of the screen I have in london.

 

It was the old one that had a small space where the blue square you pointed out was.

 

The new one has a U-shaped plastic channel on the metal post and the seal then disappears into this at the bottom trying to form a better seal as @Triassic mentions.

 

I knew it had been leaking though, so I switched it on with the shower directed at the corner of the bath. I had assumed that the water was getting under the seal, where you see it here. In fact watching from outside the bath, once water hit the door it actually came through the hinge where the grooved wheels can be seen. The drip that you see in the picture came from there but settled at the bottom making me think the seal wasn't working properly.

 

I suspect that when hit by a lot of water these screens will always allow some water through, I find the only solutions is to as much as possible direct the shower head away from the screen.

 

I think @Nickfromwales fixed screen is maybe a better idea, I am not sure that the concept of a moving hinge and watertightness are very compatible. Probably depends on how often you plan to use it, ok for occasional use but not for every day use.

 

[Dbas]

Thanks @Triassicand @AliG, the contractor brought a different bottom seal for our screen, and with a U shape channel too, which really helps stop the leak.

 

@Nickfromwales A wooden batten is currently used under the offending corner of the acrylic bath, haha. I'll check with the bathroom fitter that this is only a temporary measure in use till he makes the time to come back to complete the work, and perhaps to use plywood as you suggested. The old bath in this place had a wooden frame propping it up under the outer side (length wise), i wonder whether are frames used for steel baths and not acrylic ones because of how much heavier steel baths are? Our acrylic bath has brackets holding it in place at the walls, and no frames on the outer side.

 

many thanks for all your advice. 

Edited May 8, 2017 by Dbas

[Nickfromwales]

The wooden frame on most acrylic baths are there to receive the top lip of the bath panels. Steel baths don't typically have any timber as it can't be bonded on easily like during the manufacturing processes associated with acrylic. I have always had to make complete frames from scratch for steel baths. 

Does the timber frame run under the taps as well as along the length of your bath? If so it'll be impossible to jack the dog ear corner up as the whole thing will try and lift as one . 

[Dbas]

There is a frame higher up for the shower (bulkhead?), but not below to support the bath where the bath taps are. I've been told on the other sides where the bath meets the wall, the bath is secured to the wall with brackets. There isn't a frame supporting the bath on the outside, behind the bath panel. Should I ask for one there, to prevent further flexing of the bath?

Edited May 8, 2017 by Dbas

[Nickfromwales]

We're not on the same page here

Pic is just a random Internet grab  The timber frame I'm referring to is factory integrated into the construction of the bath. See the image, where the legs meet the underside of the bath......they hit this timber batten. Does your bath have that batten built into both width and lengthways as in the pic? 

[Dbas]

There was no timber that came with the bath, but I'm not sure whether the fitter built one. He's coming within the hour, so I'll take pictures when he removes the bath panel. 

Edited May 8, 2017 by Dbas

[Nickfromwales]

?

[Dbas]

Will post picture when fitter eventually comes around..

[Dbas]

So it turns out the corner is dipping about 2mm. We currently have a wooden batten wedged underneath (pic below), and then fitter said he will change this for a piece of CLS timber. I asked for some plywood on the underside of that corner for the CLS timber to be wedged up against as you @Nickfromwales suggested, but the fitter is confident that the acrylic will not crack. In regards to your earlier question, there is no timber both in the width and lengthwise of the bath. 

 

The fitter said because the bath is so flimsy (he reckons it's about 3-4mm thick), the corner where it is dipping is probably due to the weight of the bath screen. That outer corner also has a bulge (pic below) which is rather unsettling. 

 

We asked whether the other corners of the bath will move over time if we wedge up the offending corner. The other corners are not actually held to the wall by brackets, but just by a double seal. Again, he assured us they wouldn't.

 

I seem to be getting contradictory answers, like -- the bath is so thin and flimsy, that it is dipping and bulging. On the other hand, it is not so flimsy that it will crack or move over time, nor does it need further support at the corners.....  I am not convinced just one piece of CLS timber will solve this issue. 

 

Some questions:

1. To prop up with CLS timber, the fitter only needs to remove the 1 and 1/2 tiles above that side of the bath (pic below) and not the whole bottom row of tiles on all sides? 

2. The other corners of the bath are held to the wall by a double seal. Are they really not going to move? 

3. Should we change to a 6mm thick acrylic bath?

 

Regarding #3 the bath: the fitter is convinced that the problem is the quality of bath -- either because it is so thin, or it has a manufacturing defect (which he said would be a hassle to get VP to exchange). We bought this bath on the advice of the contractor, we asked him about the quality and durability of the bath, and he repeatedly assured us that this bath wouldn't give any problems. Had he advised us to pay slightly more for a thicker acrylic bath, we would gladly have done so! Can we tell the contractor and insist -- the bath is unsuitable, and we will pay the difference for a sturdier bath? It will definitely be difficult to get him to agree, as who then would be responsible to pay for the workmanship? And if we strip off the whole bottom row of tiles to change the bath, there's no telling how the plasterboard behind will hold up. But we certainly don't want the headache of having more problems with the bath in the near future!

 

Advice is much, much needed. Thanks in advance. 

Edited May 10, 2017 by Dbas

[Nickfromwales]

Ok. 

The bulge in the bath is most definitely because the batten is causing the bath to distort. I think this is all pointing in one direction......bye bye bath. 

I also think thats a lot more than a 'couple' of mm dog ear. . 

Some pills for your fitter to swallow.....

1) He advised you to purchase that bath. 

2) He stated its robust etc

3) he stated its wonky and weak enough for the screen to bend the bath ; contradicting #2

4) Srceens screw into the wall channel and by no means should ever weigh the bath down as that would crush the seal strip so makes #3 a load of bullshit

5) He should have identified the defects prior to final fixibgvthe bath, end of subject. 

 

For you....

 

1) You haven't landed the best fitters, but they've come back to address the problems which shows at least some integrity. That's obviously helped by the fact there's money owing. 

2) Approach VP immediately yourself as the bath is unfit for purpose and suffers from obvious manufacturing defects. Time to argue that one out but try and agree on a credit towards buying a Trojan Cast ( reinforced ) bath from them rather than a refund. If they offer a refund then great, but I think you'll need to settle on middle ground TBH. 

3) Insist the new bath is fitted to a wall mounted batten that runs for the 3 full sides that meet the wall, a standard that I observe for every bath I fit ( the brackets they've used always go in the bin on my jobs ). 

4) Get the bath set into Sikaflex EBT and levelled accordingly. Leave that for a good 12 hrs to cure and then use the same to fundamentally seal the bath to the wall. 

Replace the tiles and use a coloured silicone to seal the bath to the tiles ( cosmetic / splashproof seal ). 

5) Get the fixed screen / curtain combo and enjoy. 

 

These guys fit bathrooms and charge for it. Best they do it properly or leave the money there for someone else to come behind them. It's your confidence in them that's the deciding factor. 

[Jeremy Harris]

I hate to say this, but I made a very, very big mistake in buying from Victoria Plumb a few years ago, when I gutted and refitted the bathroom in our old house.  The totally crap quality wasn't immediately obvious, except with the acrylic shower bath, which I beefed up with loads of fibreglass and plywood before fitting, as it was obvious that the thing wasn't going to be stiff enough as it was.  I also screwed treated timber battens to three walls, so one side and both ends of the bath were supported at the edge, as well as by the legs.

 

Luckily the bath has been OK, but I've had to replace the thermostatic shower valve (leaked because the shit metal internal casting corroded), the bath and basin wastes (leaked because the crap plastic nuts they came with cracked and the threads corroded, despite never having been over-tightened) and the wash basin mixer tap (corroded shit metal again, with ordinary mild steel tap spindles, believe it or not!).

 

I'm absolutely certain that Victoria Plumb import a lot of this complete crap from China.  There is no way that either the thermostatic shower valve or the basin mixer tap were WRAS compliant, as they were very obviously made of non-WRAS compliant materials.  How they get away with it I don't know, but they are competing at the very bottom of the price range, which may well be why corners are cut.

Edited May 10, 2017 by JSHarris

[Dbas]

Thanks very very much for the helpful input. 

 

@Nickfromwales Thanks for your advice. I've emailed Victoria Plum, informing them of the dipping and distorting of bath. I had a look for Trojan baths on their website, but they don't stock any so I've requested for a refund. If that doesn't work then I'll have to settle for credit but buy the bath elsewhere! 

About bath installation:

 

1. Our bath is about 3-4mm thick acrylic. The contractor assured us it's secure because it's attached to wall by brackets. (I note you say you usually reinforce with a wall mounted batten). The fitter (different guy from contractor) confirmed that it's not even secured with brackets, but just with legs, and double seal at the wall. Is this normal? Surely the sealant at wall is not a strong and durable enough reinforcement?

 

2. When these issues finally gets sorted and we get a new bath, I can only request strongly it be fitted with a wall mounted batten. But the fitter can insist that's not necessary -- legs and sealant will hold it up, then I'll be back at square one. Do they have to comply with the customer's request? Currently fitter is adamant all the problems are due to quality of the materials we ordered, and there's nothing he will do to further reinforce the bath (aside from the piece of CLS timber).

 

@JSHarris Ack, sounds like you've had quite some issues with your bath items too. So many contractors that came to our place to quote for redoing our bathroom suggested Victoria Plum, so I just went ahead and ordered from there... should have done more research beforehand.

Edited May 13, 2017 by Dbas

[Nickfromwales]

You don't take instructions from your contractor, you issue them. If they won't do as you ask them you tell them to FO, simple.

Explain your issues to date, and advice so far, and politely explain that your not telling them how to do their job but you are asking for certain disciplines to be observed in order to not be doing the job for a third time . 

The battens not being fitted, as well as the metal brackets not being fitted is just ? workmanship, and is showing the original installers true colours. Best to flush him and keep the money back required to complete the job. He should have sealed the bath to the wall ( including batten top ) AND fundamentally sealed the bath to the wall PRIOR to tiling and have identified the defects with the bath......that's '1st year apprentice bad' so he doesn't have a leg to stand on afaic. 

Keep the pressure on VP and pester the life out of them until you get credit at least. Ask them if they do the shower screen / curtain combo and go for that. 

 

[Jeremy Harris]

The problem with Victoria Plumb is that a lot of their stuff is at the very budget end of the market, and so a lot of people looking for a keen price may well be attracted to them (I was, back when I refitted our old bathroom).  For those looking to cut costs, the budget Victoria Plumb stuff can look attractive, and frankly the majority of customers won't know what's decent quality and what's not when it's new.  There were no outward signs that the stuff I bought were iffy, but it was very noticeable when I replaced the basin mixer tap and shower mixer later that the proper brass replacements were a LOT heavier than the nasty chrome plated shit metal stuff.

 

In our case, the bath was pretty flimsy, and it was pretty clear when I was unpacking it that it was likely to flex a fair bit.  The internal acrylic finish was OK, and it already had a thin fibreglass external reinforcing layer, with a bit of ratty chipboard glued on the bottom.  As I had a gallon or so of resin, plus a roll of chopped strand mat, it was pretty easy to just add a load of additional reinforcement to the outside, including fibre glassing some plywood bracing.  Because I did this with the bath upside down, on a flat surface, it stayed nice and square.  It wasn't at all cost effective; I'd have been far better off buying a better quality bath, but it was quicker and easier than trying to ship the thing back for a replacement.

 

To add a bit of balance, Victoria Plumb do stock some half-decent stuff, at a higher price, so they aren't inherently bad.  They are just competing on price at the bottom end, and I've no doubt that other budget suppliers are selling much the same quality stuff at that price.

 

When it came to our new house, I stuck with well-known brand names for the taps, shower, shower tray, etc.  The one exception is the bath, because I know that neither of us will ever use it, it's for guests only.  I just chose a middle range enamelled steel bath that was the right size, as frankly you can't really go far wrong with a steel bath, it's always going to be a lot more rigid than a plastic one.

Edited May 13, 2017 by JSHarris