What cables to use within a HA cabinet?

[Hilldes]

8 hours ago, joth said:

Ha, wish I'd thought of this before building mine! Ideally get a small metal cabinet specifically for the 110 block termination, and have a row of strain relief (shielded) cable clamps to hold the CAT6 outer jackets and screen in place rather than having them float loose as I currently do.

Ok so now I'm goggling "strain relief (shielded) cable clamps" as well as 100 blocks ?

 

8 hours ago, joth said:

I'm guessing 28 x CAT6 is you're running an entirely radial system? i.e. one cat6 per lightswitch / motion sensor / other device?

This is maximum flexibility but a lot of cable. What I settled on very late in our 1st fix was that having one (or possibly 2) CAT6 drop per "room" seemed the sweet spot. My preference was to wire it to the main light switch in that room, and then daisy chain from there to all the other devices.

This way the drops coming into the cabinet are very easy to label up (just the room name) and if there's any issues with any device it's very straight forward to isolate just that room and then diagnose.

Yes I generally ran one CAT6 cable per device (e.g. retractive switch, PIR sensor). Having seen the plaster board being fitted I became convinced I was going to get screws through cables so wanted to minimise the impact of that. Not that expensive for the cable in the scheme of things but more effort to run the cables. The only exception is bedrooms that have a light switch at the door then a light switch either side of the bed - in this case I ran a single CAT6 cable to the room and then on to the other two back boxes and will wire them in parallel. Like the idea though of one/two CAT6 drops per room.

[Hilldes]

6 hours ago, Dan F said:

Most terminal blocks (apart from the 8-level ones) are just over 5mm wide each.  Wago also do the T&E terminal blocks with the earth "foot" which would address your previous question to.

Thanks @Dan F I did look at the terminal blocks that had the earth terminal connected to the DIN rail, but they all seemed to have features such as a test function which I was not convinced connected the L or N terminals permanently.

 

6 hours ago, Dan F said:

Assumung you can get all terinal blocks on the top row, how many Loxone extensions do you have?  Will these all fit on the two middle rails, leaving the bottom rails for PSU's and RCBO's?

Yes I think all the Loxone extensions will fit easily on the two middle DIN rails, leaving the bottom rail for 24V PSUs and 230v RCBOs.

[Dan F]

33 minutes ago, Hilldes said:

Thanks @Dan F I did look at the terminal blocks that had the earth terminal connected to the DIN rail, but they all seemed to have features such as a test function which I was not convinced connected the L or N terminals permanently.

Wago 2003-7646 would be the equivilant of the ones I'm using.  I've stuck to the the Weidmuller PDL 4 S/N/L/PE blocks for most things.  But am about to order the new version of these for terminating DALI runs, as they need to allow 4 bridged cross-connectors in order to support this interesting setup. (DALI has L, N, E, DA+, DA-)

 

 

33 minutes ago, Hilldes said:

Yes I think all the Loxone extensions will fit easily on the two middle DIN rails, leaving the bottom rail for 24V PSUs and 230v RCBOs.

Great!

Edited November 25, 2021 by Dan F

[Rob99]

4 hours ago, Hilldes said:

So "double height" is like the Wago 2002-2201 and "tripple height" is a 3 pair of terminals?

Triple height are Wago 2002-3201 with 3 levels of connections. So, for example, if you use 5 terminal blocks in a group then you get 1 set of 5-core RGBW connections at each level. With double height terminals you can connect 2 RGBW for every 5 terminal blocks, or 3 RGBW if using triple height.

Hope that makes sense ?

[Hilldes]

13 hours ago, Rob99 said:

Triple height are Wago 2002-3201 with 3 levels of connections. So, for example, if you use 5 terminal blocks in a group then you get 1 set of 5-core RGBW connections at each level. With double height terminals you can connect 2 RGBW for every 5 terminal blocks, or 3 RGBW if using triple height.

Hope that makes sense ?

makes sense, thanks @Rob

[Hilldes]

The next question on this journey is back to the panel wire...and what is the maximum current that should be designed to flow. I know there are many variables here, such as whether cable is separated or grouped, ambient temperature etc. From googling this I see a range of max current values for the two types of stranded panel wire I have, but to be safe I'm going to assume this:

 

0.5mm2 Max 3A

1mm2 Max 6A

 

Is that about right?

[TonyT]

Go for tri rated cable

[Dan F]

47 minutes ago, Hilldes said:

0.5mm2 Max 3A

1mm2 Max 6A

 

Is that about right?

 

Tri-rated cable has much higher current ratings.  I'm using 1mm2 for everything 230v in the panel, apart from a couple of things such as the common live/nuetral for 4 x bathroom UFH mats (total of 15A between them) where I'll use 1.5mm just to be on the save side.

 

[Hilldes]

2 hours ago, Dan F said:

 

Tri-rated cable has much higher current ratings.  I'm using 1mm2 for everything 230v in the panel, apart from a couple of things such as the common live/nuetral for 4 x bathroom UFH mats (total of 15A between them) where I'll use 1.5mm just to be on the save side.

 

Thanks @Dan F, what reference source of information are you using to determine maximum current for tri-rated tables?

 

2 hours ago, TonyT said:

Go for tri rated cable

Thanks @TonyT I've bought tri-rated cables and looking for a source of reference on what the max current should be for specific cable CSAs.

[Rob99]

8 minutes ago, Hilldes said:

I've bought tri-rated cables and looking for a source of reference on what the max current should be for specific cable CSAs.

The cable rating should be marked on the reel. If not, I'd be concerned about authenticity. The cable itself should also have writing on it.

Generally 0.5mm2 is 11A, 1.0mm2 is 17A and 1.5mm2 is 21A. Note these are max values and derating factors will need to be allowed for.

As @Dan F has done, you need to consider what appliance it is you're powering at the end of the circuit.

[Dan F]

https://www.doncastercables.com/product-documents/TRI-RATED.pdf

 

(TLC quote same figures in product description)

[TonyT]

Rs components is a great web site as it has lots of data sheets

 

https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/tri-rated-cable/9062707/

 

1mm2 can take 17 amps.

[Hilldes]

Thanks @Rob99, @Dan F and @TonyT. I see it now does say 17 A for the 1mm2 on the TLC web site and RS and Doncaster concur on the maximum, although only Doncaster cables mentioned this is the in free air figure and the derating for a 10 cable bundle is 0.48 so giving 8A in a cabinet. So my 6A figure is within. A bit naughty perhaps of RS and TLC not to mention derating.

 

In practice, the kitchen diner downlights is one of the larger current circuits with 15x 8W 230v LED downlights and will only draw 0.5A. Although there are some 5A round pin lamp sockets that may ultimately draw more depending on what is connected to them.

 

The writing on the TLC cable though did not mention current unless it was hidden in a code, likewise the cable reel did not...

 

 

 

 

Edited November 26, 2021 by Hilldes

[TonyT]

Grouping factors, ambient temperature etc are all factors found in the regs book not cable manufacturers 

Edited November 26, 2021 by TonyT

[Dan F]

The derating assumes cables are bunched and touching along their length.  It is also based on are all cables carrying rated current.  So unless you are putting 10 x 1mm2 cables together, all running 8.5A, i don't think you need to derate quite as much.

[Hilldes]

Looking to make a purchase of "110" IDC terminal blocks to go in a separate enclosure to manage the incoming CAT6 cables and bring only the needed twisted pairs in to the Loxone cabinet. For the "110" blocks this is all I can find, it looks like the IDC connectors can handle CAT6 (i.e. 23 AWG). Not sure though how to mount these blocks from RS in a enclosure... @joth I know you mentioned 110 blocks, do you have any experience of implementing them?

 

 

[Hilldes]

Lower cost block at TLC, and can have 5 blocks in this enclosure. Ideally though would like some way to have more blocks in a larger enclosure where I can also add cable constraints.

[joth]

On 25/11/2021 at 09:56, Rob99 said:

Wow, thats a lot of cat6! Do you need all 224 cores to connect into your cabinet, or just some of them? I would terminate cat6 outside the cabinet on a patch panel or a 110 block and then only bring into the cabinet the cores you actually need.

 

@Hilldes I don't have any experience using them, was just commenting on @Rob99 suggestion (quoted above) - he might have ideas on suppliers. 

 

 

[Rob99]

2 hours ago, Hilldes said:

Looking to make a purchase of "110" IDC terminal blocks to go in a separate enclosure to manage the incoming CAT6 cables and bring only the needed twisted pairs in to the Loxone cabinet. For the "110" blocks this is all I can find, it looks like the IDC connectors can handle CAT6 (i.e. 23 AWG). Not sure though how to mount these blocks from RS in a enclosure... @joth I know you mentioned 110 blocks, do you have any experience of implementing them?

 

 

@Hilldes you could use a large 110 block like this. The 300 pair kit is a good price as it includes the colour coded connection blocks, but you can make up any size you need in multiples of 50 pair. You can then mount them inside a plain plastic enclosure, similar to this type

[Hilldes]

Many thanks @Rob99 and @joth just what I was looking for. Will order and have a play over the holiday period.  

[Hilldes]

So now I have the 110 blocks... @Rob99 would really appreciate your guidance on how to use them....

 

 

As in the pic, there is the main frame which has what appear to be plastic 'gaps' that you could insert an IDC tool into. And there are the small separate blocks shown loose in the pic which have metal slots in. Can I just check please to use the main frame with no metal parts I would need to strip two wires and insert both into the plastic gaps to connect them? - sounds a bit hit and miss. How do I use the loose items with metal - they look more like conventional IDC connectors so can just use an IDC tool to insert the un-stripped CAT6 conductors, but how do they mount on the frame?

 

Also any good practices to share on how how to secure the CAT6 cables as they enter the enclosure would be appreciated.

 

P.S. got all the kit installed in the Loxone cabinet and wired a few lighting circuits and have the heating controls done in Loxone also.  Very impressed with the simplicity of Loxone Config and the mobile app so far. Will post a few pics when I'm a bit further through.

[Rob99]

@Hilldes the way the 110 block works is that you insert the 4 pairs of each cat6 cable into one section of the 110 block, one core into each section and push it down with an IDC tool. You then take the small seperate blocks and push these down onto the 110 blocks over the first set of cables. You then connect the bottom layer of cat6 cores from the connections on the top of the seperate blocks to wherever they need to go.

 

There is a useful video here which shows what I mean about inserting the small blocks on top of the 110 frames.

 

[Hilldes]

Thanks @Rob99 The instructions that came with the lower blocks don't mention the upper blocks and the upper blocks don't come with any instructions. I'll order the enclosure now I know what size the 100 blocks are and then progress the CAT6 wiring.

Edited January 7, 2022 by Hilldes

[joth]

@Hilldes

If you don't already have one, invest in a good IDC tool with a metal bit and automatic cutters and a hook for when you mess one up ?

 

Edited January 7, 2022 by joth