Internet Know How Posted August 2, 2021 Share Posted August 2, 2021 Hi, We are due to start our build, and given we are within 3 meters of neighbouring properties, and are digging below their foundations, the party wall act says we must notify. I have notified both neighbours, we have full planning and building control approval to proceed. Neither neighbour raised any objection to any aspect of our build. Section 6 of the act - adjacent excavation and construction says we have to give one months notice. If they sign a positive acknowledgement, then that's fine...we go ahead and start We are due to start our excavation in 1 month. What if they ignore my notice, or write back to object? We are building within our land, away from the existing shared party wall. the neighbouring properties foundations have been strengthened The act says an ignore or objection means I have to write back and offer to appoint a surveyor. The act also says, the adjacent owners cannot stop me building on my own land. Its a little confusing, because the act does say at some point the only way the neighbours can stop your build is through a court injunction. The neighbours seem ok generally, but they always are until you make a start I am ready to put a spade in the ground and looking for some advice from those in the know. Time is also against us as we want to start now, in summertime. Also any delay to our start sate costs thousands per month! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Jimbo Posted August 2, 2021 Share Posted August 2, 2021 IMO you have no choice now but to speak to your neighbour and get him to scribble on the back of a fag packet that he is fine about you digging near his property. If he is not so keen then get your wallet out for a party wall surveyor. You would have been better to have just dug it on Day One. Concreted it on day Two, and pretended that you thought that you were only going as deep as there footings. That ship has sailed now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Internet Know How Posted August 2, 2021 Author Share Posted August 2, 2021 2 minutes ago, Big Jimbo said: IMO you have no choice now but to speak to your neighbour and get him to scribble on the back of a fag packet that he is fine about you digging near his property. If he is not so keen then get your wallet out for a party wall surveyor. You would have been better to have just dug it on Day One. Concreted it on day Two, and pretended that you thought that you were only going as deep as there footings. That ship has sailed now. Yes the ship has sailed, but it could have been a bigger problem should I have started without giving him a letter confirming our build start date. He has already informed me some time back he has reviewed our plans on the planning portal. The last thing I want is to start a big build, and have a neighbour trying to stop it so just wanting to do things propertly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Jimbo Posted August 2, 2021 Share Posted August 2, 2021 Get him to sign something......if he won't you should be able to get a Party wall surveyor to sort it within your timescale if your quick.... That is unless he does not like what the surveyor awards. In that case you will have to appoint and pay for a second surveyor......When the second surveyor and the first surveyor don't agree, you will have to appoint a third surveyor, and you can then forget about digging holes till next year. For somebody wanting to do it all properly, you have left it a bit late to get sorted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Jimbo Posted August 2, 2021 Share Posted August 2, 2021 Just to add, if you are not building on the boundary, or attempting to attach to your neighbours property, and are just doing foundations within 3 meters of his. What is your ground like ? How near are you digging? Why did his footings have to be strengthened ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Internet Know How Posted August 2, 2021 Author Share Posted August 2, 2021 3 minutes ago, Big Jimbo said: Get him to sign something......if he won't you should be able to get a Party wall surveyor to sort it within your timescale if your quick.... That is unless he does not like what the surveyor awards. In that case you will have to appoint and pay for a second surveyor......When the second surveyor and the first surveyor don't agree, you will have to appoint a third surveyor, and you can then forget about digging holes till next year. For somebody wanting to do it all properly, you have left it a bit late to get sorted. 2 minutes ago, Big Jimbo said: Just to add, if you are not building on the boundary, or attempting to attach to your neighbours property, and are just doing foundations within 3 meters of his. What is your ground like ? How near are you digging? Why did his footings have to be strengthened ? We are digging within 3 meters of neighbouring properties so its the 3m notice, but we are our side of the existing shared boundary fence, on our land. Even so, the act still applies. Neighbouring footings have not had to be strengthened, but the entire boundary line just outside of our excavation has been, to ensure its done property. It provides a safe build for us, and to ensure the adjoining properties have a retaining wall in place to support their property. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Jimbo Posted August 2, 2021 Share Posted August 2, 2021 With a bit of luck then you will be able to get the signature on the fag packet. Best of luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olf Posted August 2, 2021 Share Posted August 2, 2021 1 hour ago, Internet Know How said: We are due to start our excavation in 1 month. What if they ignore my notice, or write back to object? If you have to go the surveyour route, such party wall award is valid from the moment it is issued (unless specified otherwise in the document itself), so you might be still on schedule or even ahead of - but surely out of pocket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Internet Know How Posted August 2, 2021 Author Share Posted August 2, 2021 12 minutes ago, Olf said: If you have to go the surveyour route, such party wall award is valid from the moment it is issued (unless specified otherwise in the document itself), so you might be still on schedule or even ahead of - but surely out of pocket. I will get in touch with the neighbours ahead of the 14 days then to get a feel for whether they will consent, reject, or ignore and go from there. It will buy me some time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gus Potter Posted August 2, 2021 Share Posted August 2, 2021 2 hours ago, Internet Know How said: Hi, I am ready to put a spade in the ground and looking for some advice from those in the know. Time is also against us as we want to start now, in summertime. Also any delay to our start sate costs thousands per month! Hello Internet Known How. As a bit of background you probably know about the "45 degree rule" This is a kind of rule of thumb which assumes that any load from a party wall or foundation say spreads out at 45 degrees thus if you are 3.0m away from a party wall or neighbours found you can dig happily down 3.0m. But this is not always the case and this is where the issues arise. As a bit of background. If you tip out a load of broken jagged brick from a lorry it will form a pile. The sides may slope at some 40 degrees. Tip out a load of round gravel and the pile will spread further, the sides being less of a slope. Tip out a load of custard and the slope of the sides will be pretty shallow. This is called the "angle of repose" and it is roughly related to the shear strength of soils. Much will depend on the type of soil. You could have a stiff boulder clay / good chalk ( goodish shear strength) and this will allow you to dig deeper and closer so long as you don't leave the excavation open for too long. A soft / sensitive / high plasticity clay found often in the South East say can behave a bit like custard under certain conditions so the 45 degress rule can be no longer valid. The bearing capacity of a foundation changes depending on how much soil is above it. If the ground slips you can remove / change this extra weight on top which is confining the soil around the found. You also have to look at where the water table is for example..it can be quite complex as when you change this water level it can make the ground behave in a different way. It would be worthwhile having a chat with your SE and get them on board. They may not even charge you for this and give you good pointers. One aim here is to reign in the Surveyors, focus minds and hopefully speed up the process. Also, by doing so you can show you are acting in a responsible manner and this can carry some weight. On a light hearted note to finish.. if your SE mentions custard then ask if porrage behaves the same. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Internet Know How Posted August 3, 2021 Author Share Posted August 3, 2021 7 hours ago, Gus Potter said: Hello Internet Known How. As a bit of background you probably know about the "45 degree rule" This is a kind of rule of thumb which assumes that any load from a party wall or foundation say spreads out at 45 degrees thus if you are 3.0m away from a party wall or neighbours found you can dig happily down 3.0m. But this is not always the case and this is where the issues arise. As a bit of background. If you tip out a load of broken jagged brick from a lorry it will form a pile. The sides may slope at some 40 degrees. Tip out a load of round gravel and the pile will spread further, the sides being less of a slope. Tip out a load of custard and the slope of the sides will be pretty shallow. This is called the "angle of repose" and it is roughly related to the shear strength of soils. Much will depend on the type of soil. You could have a stiff boulder clay / good chalk ( goodish shear strength) and this will allow you to dig deeper and closer so long as you don't leave the excavation open for too long. A soft / sensitive / high plasticity clay found often in the South East say can behave a bit like custard under certain conditions so the 45 degress rule can be no longer valid. The bearing capacity of a foundation changes depending on how much soil is above it. If the ground slips you can remove / change this extra weight on top which is confining the soil around the found. You also have to look at where the water table is for example..it can be quite complex as when you change this water level it can make the ground behave in a different way. It would be worthwhile having a chat with your SE and get them on board. They may not even charge you for this and give you good pointers. One aim here is to reign in the Surveyors, focus minds and hopefully speed up the process. Also, by doing so you can show you are acting in a responsible manner and this can carry some weight. On a light hearted note to finish.. if your SE mentions custard then ask if porrage behaves the same. Hi Gus, thanks for advice, lots of useful pointers in there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Punter Posted August 3, 2021 Share Posted August 3, 2021 If you get a Party Wall Surveyor to issue the notice they often make it easy for the neighbour to appoint them as the Agreed Surveyor which speeds things up. As an indication I have just got one through and the cost was £1,590. In contrast, one we had a couple of years ago with 2 neighbours costs £8,000 in fees plus £5,600 in award monies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Internet Know How Posted August 3, 2021 Author Share Posted August 3, 2021 3 minutes ago, Mr Punter said: If you get a Party Wall Surveyor to issue the notice they often make it easy for the neighbour to appoint them as the Agreed Surveyor which speeds things up. As an indication I have just got one through and the cost was £1,590. In contrast, one we had a couple of years ago with 2 neighbours costs £8,000 in fees plus £5,600 in award monies. Wow, £8000 is expensive! What do they actually do to award a notice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Punter Posted August 3, 2021 Share Posted August 3, 2021 The Party Wall Award is like an agreement and covers things like working hours and method of construction. It includes a schedule of condition and photos, together with your plans and engineers drawings. The £8,000 fees was because 1 neighbour was a professional PITA who did not want the development to go ahead, appointed their own surveyor who they contacted at every stage, racking up fees for muggins here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Internet Know How Posted August 3, 2021 Author Share Posted August 3, 2021 1 minute ago, Mr Punter said: The Party Wall Award is like an agreement and covers things like working hours and method of construction. It includes a schedule of condition and photos, together with your plans and engineers drawings. The £8,000 fees was because 1 neighbour was a professional PITA who did not want the development to go ahead, appointed their own surveyor who they contacted at every stage, racking up fees for muggins here. Oh no, sorry to hear about that! At the moment no neighbour has objected to our build or raised any comments at the planning stage. We are fully approved. The thing is though, when you send a letter to someone saying you are going to excavate and construct, they may not want to sign an document they dont understand. Question is, if I dont hear back after 14 days, can I just start my build, or is it law to then progress with a surveyor? I have already notified and included site plans, and section drawings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Punter Posted August 3, 2021 Share Posted August 3, 2021 3 hours ago, Internet Know How said: Question is, if I dont hear back after 14 days, can I just start my build, or is it law to then progress with a surveyor? You would need to make sure that the notices you served contain the correct information and there are suggested proformas on line. Your neighbour would need to give their consent in writing for you to then go ahead. If they do not, it is best for you to agree to appoint a surveyor. If you cannot both agree on the same surveyor you neighbour can appoint their own. You will pay all fees. If you just go ahead the neighbour could apply for an injunction and get works stopped, together with costs. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Internet Know How Posted August 3, 2021 Author Share Posted August 3, 2021 4 hours ago, Mr Punter said: You would need to make sure that the notices you served contain the correct information and there are suggested proformas on line. Your neighbour would need to give their consent in writing for you to then go ahead. If they do not, it is best for you to agree to appoint a surveyor. If you cannot both agree on the same surveyor you neighbour can appoint their own. You will pay all fees. If you just go ahead the neighbour could apply for an injunction and get works stopped, together with costs. I followed a formal template having read the actual manual online. I sent site plans, section drawings of basement inc depth, intro letter and items for them to sign. Its at times like this where you learn how nice your neighbours really are Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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