minskin Posted June 7, 2021 Share Posted June 7, 2021 Afternoon all, I'm hoping some of you can offer us some advice please. We are looking at hopefully purchasing an ex waterworks property in a rural (AONB) area that is going for auction. We've missed out previously on similar properties though as they've sold prior to auction so we would like to move fast and get an offer in asap if it's viable. The property is modest in size but substantially built in stone. It has roughly half of its roof structure remaining. We are confident that we can convert what's there into a small home for the two of us without the need to change any of the building's outside appearance. Clearly it won't be a simple process to get PP but we want to give it our best shot. We've considered approaching the council for pre-planning advice using their level two service which asks for a site survey. We asked two local surveyors for pre-aquisition survey quotes and whilst they are thorough they're not cheap so we need to know that we're doing the right thing. Is this the normal order of things? Would we be better using a planning consultant? Is it acceptable to put in an offer now and if so can we make it subject to survey /planning? Do I sound like I'm panicking? ? Of course, all of this takes time as well and we're nervous that someone (who knows what they're doing) will bung an offer in and it will sell. We are therefore really confused as to what to do. We are happy to pay to give us the best chance of success but on the other hand don't want to waste money.... obviously. Any advice anyone can give us at this stage would be most welcome. Thank you ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markc Posted June 7, 2021 Share Posted June 7, 2021 Highly unlikely they will accept an offer subject to survey or planning etc. Properties go to auction to save any hassle for the seller. Auction properties generally sell for less (although i have seen people pay well over the odds after getting auction fever) but the buyer takes a risk. Planning Consultant would (for a price) give you some pointers or an idea but not set in stone. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minskin Posted June 7, 2021 Author Share Posted June 7, 2021 44 minutes ago, markc said: Highly unlikely they will accept an offer subject to survey or planning etc. Properties go to auction to save any hassle for the seller. No, I didn't think so. The vendor is a utility company and I've seen a few of their properties go to auction now but they often sell pre-auction which suggests they may accept any reasonable offers. I'm just considering a small consultant experienced in similar properties so will contact them for advice. Thank you 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonner Posted June 7, 2021 Share Posted June 7, 2021 Very surprised if a utility company sells property before the auction. Normally they have demonstrate transparency through open bidding at auction. Biggest obstacle could be access unless it is next to a public highway. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minskin Posted June 7, 2021 Author Share Posted June 7, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Bonner said: Very surprised if a utility company sells property before the auction. Normally they have demonstrate transparency through open bidding at auction. Biggest obstacle could be access unless it is next to a public highway. Oh interesting. They did definitely sell another property prior to auction as I emailed the utility company itself to enquire about why it was withdrawn and if it would become available again and was told that it was sold prior to auction. The current property has the option to submit a pre-auction offer next to the listing. It's right next to a public highway and has good access. Thank you Edited June 7, 2021 by minskin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temp Posted June 7, 2021 Share Posted June 7, 2021 When is the auction? If its already booked its unlikely you have time to get advice from the planners. They are very busy and at least one council has suspended giving pre application advice as they are overloaded. A planning consultant might be able to get an informal opinion from them if he knows them personally. Old boy network and all that. No guarantees though. You should probably be doing a lot of other due diligence checks or at least weigh up the risk of not doing them.. Ransom strips or similar? Covenants? Visibility splays? Access to electricity/sewerage/telephone Rainwater disposal if combined sewers not allowed. Contamination? Asbestos? Bats/Newts? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minskin Posted June 7, 2021 Author Share Posted June 7, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, Temp said: When is the auction? If its already booked its unlikely you have time to get advice from the planners. They are very busy and at least one council has suspended giving pre application advice as they are overloaded. Auction is July 20th - I've submitted a level 1 pre-app today on line. I did check first and they are responding to all paid applications so they will deal with it. What it doesn't tell me though (no doubt because they don't know) is when. 2 hours ago, Temp said: A planning consultant might be able to get an informal opinion from them if he knows them personally. Old boy network and all that. No guarantees though. I spoke to a planning consultant today and after a cursory look at the property details his best advice was to do the level 1 pre-app to at least get an 'in principal' response. Didn't sound like he had anyone he could call. 2 hours ago, Temp said: Ransom strips or similar? Covenants? I'd already got the Title and Title plan from the Registry. The original one was lost so it only records basic info and this: "The deeds and documents of title having been lost the land is subject to such restrictive covenants as may have been imposed thereon before 30 August 2017 and are still subsisting and capable of being enforced." There are fields on 3 sides of the property and the 4th side borders a 2 lane rural road. Checked the Land Registry in case the grass verge between the road and property boundary (1m ish) shows a title but nothing comes up. 2 hours ago, Temp said: Visibility splays? Property happens to be on a straight section of what I am assuming for the moment is unrestricted road with 180m before a bend one way and 400m before a bend the other way. Dry stone walls approx 1m high border the road and property. Haven't got to grips with the principals of visibility splays yet so I don't know whether that's acceptable or not. There's room on the property to alter the depth/splay of the entrance? 2 hours ago, Temp said: Access to electricity/sewerage/telephone Rainwater disposal if combined sewers not allowed. We'll be off grid so not concerned about utilities although I'm quite sure there's an electricity supply to the property already. Doubt there are sewers tbh but there must be rainwater disposal. We need to go back and check these in more detail. 2 hours ago, Temp said: Contamination? Asbestos? Doubt it given its age but again, we'll check. 2 hours ago, Temp said: Bats/Newts? Bats are entirely possible as the bldg has been open to the elements for some time. Newts also a possibility as some wet moorland and waterways in the proximity. Happy to accommodate both tbh. How would we find out? Would we need to get an environmental assessment done? Super useful info Temp, thank you Edited June 7, 2021 by minskin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temp Posted June 7, 2021 Share Posted June 7, 2021 Perhaps think about insurance to cover any covenants from the lost title in case someone turns up and tries to enforce. May not be that expensive. Article on visibility splays with dimensions. Local rules sometimes vary.. https://www.planninggeek.co.uk/glossary/s/splays-visibility-at-junctions/ 3 hours ago, minskin said: Property happens to be on a straight section of what I am assuming for the moment is unrestricted road with 180m before a bend one way Article says you may need 215m in a 60mph area but see the diagram for how its measured. Might be ok or not. Rainwater disposal can be a big issue if soakaways don't work, eg on clay soil. The planners will advise if a bat/newt or other survey is required. Best not to ask them though. Can cause delays. For example I think some surveys can only be done at certain times of the year. Other forum members are better placed to advise. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minskin Posted June 8, 2021 Author Share Posted June 8, 2021 That's all super useful info thanks Temp. Insurance is a great idea, hadn't considered that at all. I'll ask my broker ? I'll study the visibility splays and see if I can find any details of what they require locally. I've found useful info in planning apps on other nearby properties before now as I've been researching other properties for sale. I'll check there too. Other things I know : It's not listed There are no PROWs running through/past/around it There are no overhead cables It IS in an AONB Its not a conservation area It's not an SSSI It's not protected or special in any other way like grassland, woodland or an environment for an endangered species. The property was part of the water network taking water from nearby catchment land, a nearby stream and some reservoirs. The property regulated pressure because it varied at different times of year. There's a constant run of water into what can only be described as looking like a Victorian plunge pool below ground level inside the building! I need to work out where that goes but not sure how without help from the utility company or a survey. So... I'm pretty sure there's a fresh water supply and it's draining somewhere. There is/was provision for rainwater disposal also as there are gutters and downpipes. I need to ascertain whether the property is still connected to the network. They have another property nearby that I was initially interested in and that has quite strict restrictions with regard to what can/can't be done there because it's still connected to the network. I asked my contact at the utility company for details on that and she sent me quite a lengthy document. There's no mention of similar restrictions on this other property but I've asked her anyway. She's usually very helpful and responsive but happens to be away atm! Sorry that's a bit long winded but thought if I explained what I knew it may prompt some other thoughts from anyone who knows more stuff about this stuff ? I'm very grateful for all your advice. I always get good, helpful advice here. Thanks ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minskin Posted June 24, 2021 Author Share Posted June 24, 2021 (edited) Hi everyone, I've done a bit more research on a few more things and been back to the property for a better look. I've done my best to measure and assess the visibility splays and taken some pics. Below. According to the regs there isn't sufficient view of the road to the east for a derestricted road, however it could be argued that because of the steep incline traffic cannot gain the speeds assumed on the approach to the property. Even at speeds up to 53mph, which is unlikely, the regs call for a clear view of 160m. There is actually 178m clear view. When standing 2.4m back from the road edge the gate posts and stone walls obscure the view, however there's plenty room and scope to splay the entrance assuming this is acceptable/allowable in an AONB. I'd very much appreciate your views Note: Where it says incline is approx 95m, it should actually be 72m. Many thanks, Minskin Edited June 24, 2021 by minskin Error correction 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorenz Posted June 24, 2021 Share Posted June 24, 2021 I did not know about this splay, had seen a place with buildings and planning supposedly, but the entrance-exit is right on a bend and other possible was also quite awkward. Another pitfall to bear in mind, thank you. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minskin Posted June 25, 2021 Author Share Posted June 25, 2021 Yes, there's lots to consider isn't there? I knew about visibility splays but didn't understand the theory behind it so it's been very useful to learn about it. M ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temp Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 Whats the building been used for? Any chance it was in agricultural use prior to 2013 and not used for storage by the utility co? Eg did they rent it out to a farmer or ? I'm just wondering if its in good enough condition to qualify for class Q.. https://www.newbritishdesign.com/post/a-guide-to-class-q-barn-conversions-to-create-your-new-house-in-the-countryside 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temp Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 Ah sorry class q can't be used in an AONB. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minskin Posted June 25, 2021 Author Share Posted June 25, 2021 1 minute ago, Temp said: I'm just wondering if its in good enough condition to qualify for class Q.. No I'm afraid not Temp. It was a pressure control station, part of the water network. It's definitely not been used for agri and as far as I can tell has not been used at all for anything since the 70's!.....which begs the question why they haven't tried to sell it before... or maybe they have! M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minskin Posted June 25, 2021 Author Share Posted June 25, 2021 4 minutes ago, Temp said: Ah sorry class q can't be used in an AONB. Gotcha.... Incidentally, I did do a search and cannot see that anyone has ever applied for any planning permission of any sort in it. What I don't know though is if anyone has asked for pre-app advice and been stopped in their tracks. I don't believe councils are obliged to make that info publicly available unless specifically asked for are they? M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bramco Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 46 minutes ago, minskin said: What I don't know though is if anyone has asked for pre-app advice and been stopped in their tracks. I don't believe councils are obliged to make that info publicly available unless specifically asked for are they? Don't think councils can make pre-app advice public as I think it would be against GDPR regs. I've never seen a pre-app advice on an LPA planning site. If you do ask for one and then go for outline or full, then the fact that pre-app advice was sought should be mentioned on the delegated report that goes (or should go) alongside the decision notice. Some of the info from the pre-app advice can then be made public in the report. Simon 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temp Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 When we applied for PP back in 2005 there was more than one "file" on a site. In our case there were at least three. There was the online data, a public paper file you could ask to see, and the planners own files which were a grey area. First time I went to the planning office I was able to see the public paper file just by asking to see it. Receptionist just went and got it and I was able to use their photocopier. Second time I tried to see a public paper file it was a pain. Visitors were no longer allowed into the planning office and I had to make an appointment to see it in the "visitors centre" where there were no facilities. Still it was interesting because there was stuff in the file that wasn't on the online database. Mostly letters to/from the previous owner. Later when we needed to hire a planning consultant it turned out he had been involved with the plot before. He had a letter from the planners that was very helpful to us and wasn't in either of the public files. When I showed it to the planning officer he asked where I had got it from and then went to get his boss. They rolled over pretty soon after that. How much of this "selective publication" still goes on I don't know . 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temp Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 (edited) I just love the internet sometimes... Google found... https://www.folkestone-hythe.gov.uk/article/798/Is-pre-application-advice-made-public- Quote Is pre-application advice made public? We don't automatically publicise the details of pre-application discussions, however if a request is made under the Environmental Information Regulations (EIR) we have to provide this information. snip Apart from these exemptions any other recorded information resulting from these pre-application discussions is very likely to be disclosable when we receive a request from the public under EIR. Article continues listing exceptions. So essentially it is possible to find out if anyone has had pre-application advice on a plot you are interested in. That might be faster than asking for pre-application advice yourself so worth doing both. Edited June 25, 2021 by Temp 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temp Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 and.. https://khub.net/web/planningadvisoryservicepas/forum/-/message_boards/message/6232263 This issue raised its head again this week. We accept that pre-apps are commercially tricky. We operate the process through obscurity - they are usually disclosable under FOI but because no one knows they're happening the FOI isn't initiated. So a simple FOI request might be possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minskin Posted June 26, 2021 Author Share Posted June 26, 2021 On 25/06/2021 at 10:49, Bramco said: I've never seen a pre-app advice on an LPA planning site. No, me neither On 25/06/2021 at 10:49, Bramco said: the fact that pre-app advice was sought should be mentioned on the delegated report that goes (or should go) alongside the decision notice. Didn't know that and haven't ever noticed any on any planning apps I've looked at over the past couple of years but I didn't know to look so I'll pay more attention in future. Good to know, thanks. On 25/06/2021 at 14:49, Temp said: I was able to see the public paper file just by asking to see it. Receptionist just went and got it and I was able to use their photocopier. Yes! Our local Planning office used to be brilliant, you could just wander in off the street to a desk and ask to view all sorts of things and someone would toddle off, rifle through a draw and come back with an arm full of documents and leave you with them. Gone are those days sadly. On 25/06/2021 at 14:49, Temp said: there was stuff in the file that wasn't on the online database. Mostly letters to/from the previous owner. Hmmm, very interesting. On 25/06/2021 at 14:49, Temp said: When I showed it to the planning officer he asked where I had got it from and then went to get his boss. They rolled over pretty soon after that. As you say.... 'selective publication'. It's sad that one has to play the game to get the better of the planners! On 25/06/2021 at 17:06, Temp said: We don't automatically publicise the details of pre-application discussions, however if a request is made under the Environmental Information Regulations (EIR) we have to provide this information. On 25/06/2021 at 17:06, Temp said: That might be faster than asking for pre-application advice yourself so worth doing both. I thought I'd heard this somewhere, good find, thank you Temp and yes, could be a quicker route although it still might not be quick enough as the auction is Mid July. Having said that, anyone else researching the property will be facing the same time constraints so it'll be my Monday task. Thank you both so much for the info. It's most interesting and useful. With regard to my rudimentary visibility splay survey, do you have any opinions or observations on that? Many thanks, once again Minskin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gravelrash Posted August 9, 2021 Share Posted August 9, 2021 I viewed an old stone mill in Harrogate under auction.. grade 2 listed with no roof and one wall requiring rebuilding. I rang Harrogate council for advice and the planning receptionist already had a memo regarding the property - Under no circumstances would planning be given to rebuild for any use. The guy said it seemed a very popular property but he had been told under strict instruction to advise on the memo, Have you checked with the local LPA yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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