Mains Water Connection

[swisscheese]

I have had the initial contact with our water supplier and the quote for service connection has been supplied. This has been allegedly based on a site location visit, though neither  I nor my wife were informed.

Anyway, the map below has been supplied, I have added our plot to give an idea of where we are.  The Service provider indicated the we need to attach to a main, OK.  So they have provide the location map with the amended pen and cross to indicate where they want to make the connection, this is across a <7m wide road so will require closue/excavation/signage and over 30m worth or service pipe. My question back to them, so far without reply, is why can't we connect to to the main at the top of our site outside number 1, this would be no more than 10m away from our Kitchen and no road crossing. 

Any ideas?

 

 

 

[Jeremy Harris]

What's the official classification of that pipe at the top?  I'll bet the water co have classified it as a communication pipe, feeding several properties.  They do this semi-deliberately, in my view, as they are not allowed to connect a new supply to an existing communication pipe, it has to be connected to a main. 

 

We had a long debate with our water co over this, but they have the law on their side (something in the Water Act, IIRC).  We have a pipe running down the front of our house, in the middle of a narrow lane and 2m from our boundary, that feeds one house.  It has plenty of capacity, as when we dug across the lane to put a drain in we found it, and it's a 1 1/2" cast iron pipe, running down hill, from the main around 30m higher up.  The house it feeds has a massive water pressure, so much so that they've had to fit a pressure reducing valve.  Still, the water co wanted us to dig up 140m of lane, parallel to that pipe, and install a new pipe from the main to our house....................

Edited February 10, 2017 by JSHarris

[swisscheese]

So they have so far failed to answer the question, initially the Plan was sent indicating "connection to the main", unfortunately the map supplied does not cover the area which may indicate it as a communication pipe. The fact that other communication pipes are not not on the plan makes me think it could be a main. I know where the communication pipes lay for 48/50 and they are not indicated.

 

It's the lack of response from the water company and general unhelpfulness, lack of explanation that I find annoying, that and the obvious expense it adds closing the road.

[Jeremy Harris]

I feel for you with this, as I ended up with the view that the water companies try and make things as expensive as possible when it comes to new connections.  Part of that may be that they are bound, by law, to offer a supply, so feel they can just be lax when it comes to making sure their future customer gets a good deal.

 

There is also a bit of narrow-minded thinking, that means they tend (in my experience) to want to run pipes up entrances.  When the chap came around to look at how best to give us a mains water supply, he found the main and then started measuring the distance down the lane.  He went about 10m past the corner of our plot before I asked him why he was measuring down so far, and why we couldn't run the main in at the corner nearest the lane.  The chap just hadn't thought about it, or the cost of digging up around 12m more of road, until I suggested it!

[swisscheese]

10 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

There is also a bit of narrow-minded thinking, that means they tend (in my experience) to want to run pipes up entrances....The chap just hadn't thought about it, or the cost of digging up around 12m more of road, until I suggested it!

 

I'm hoping this is the case...but the deafening silence since asking the question makes me think they are justifying the expensive answer. 

[Jeremy Harris]

4 minutes ago, swisscheese said:

 

I'm hoping this is the case...but the deafening silence since asking the question makes me think they are justifying the expensive answer. 

 

Without wishing to cast aspersions on the particular water co, I share your view!

[Ferdinand]

IIRC the Water Supplier has responsibility for shared pipes now which may change the evaluation if a new section of shared pipe is being created in private land.

So creating new shared pipes may not be something they want to do.

 

I wonder if one could covenent to pay the maintenance on the newly shared bit, or pay a commuted sum in advance?

 

Ferdinand

 

[PeterW]

They also don't like connecting in or passing over anyone else's land  from my experience.  

 

There is a main much closer to our plot and I initially looked at it as an option however it would mean crossing the rest of the neighbouring garden - total distance of 5m. Anglian surveyed and said we could use the main outside the gates - this is in an unmade road and is 29m of service pipe but it's their preferred approach. This I think is down to both wanting you to go direct onto a main plus not having to sort wayleaves and easements. 

 

Don't forget they will only dig to your boundary - looking at that you will have the rest to do yourself anyway. 

[Jeremy Harris]

We looked at running across our neighbours garden, as that was an option the water co suggested during the site visit.  It shortened the run from 140m to around 90m, and when I spoke to the neighbours concerned they were fine about it, as long as we did the work quickly and made good their garden afterwards.  In our case it was no cheaper than going up the lane, though, by the time the legal costs of the necessary way leave was accounted for.

 

I'm just waiting for the water co to replace the 1 1/2" iron pipe in the lane in front of our house, as they didn't know it was there originally (despite them having a fairly new stopcock marked "Wessex Water" at the end of it!).  When we asked all the utilities if they had anything under that lane, as a part of getting the highways licence to dig across it for our drainage, the water so wrote back to me saying they had no pipes there.  We found the old pipe purely because our ground works bloke said he never, ever trusted the utilities, so he went very carefully and found this badly corroded pipe.  He called me to look at it, we followed where it was going and found the stop cock for the house opposite in the verge.

 

I called the water co again (by this time I'd already decided to have a borehole drilled as it was cheaper) and asked if we could connect to this pipe that they didn't know they had.  That's when they classified it as a communications pipe, primarily just to stop us connecting to it.  Around two weeks later they sent a chap around to look at where that pipe ran, using a detector and marking the lane surface with a spray marker.  I went out and asked him about the pipe, and he said that now we'd found it they were going to add it to their plans and schedule it for inspection.  When I told him that the pipe had been laid in 1934, as the neighbour had records of the water supply being put in, had lived in the house his whole life (he'd been born in it, as it was his parents house) the water co bloke said that it would go on the list for urgent replacement, as they were replacing all cast iron pipes over 60 years old.

 

So, I went back to the water co and said that if they were going to replace this pipe soon, could they bring forward the replacement date and I would make a reasonable contribution, say around £10k, towards the replacement cost, if we could have a connection to it.  They refused, and said that I would have to pay the whole cost of replacing that pipe if I wanted a connection, so I just told them to f'off, in polite terms.  They still keep pestering me to have a supply from them, even now.  About every six months I get a letter from them offering me a water supply; each time I reply that we now have a private supply and aren't interested.

 

I did run a length of 25mm MDPE down to the edge of the lane, though, blanked off, but connected to the pipe that feeds our front outside tap, that's also connected back via 25mm MDPE to the water treatment shed.  I did this because we had a trench going down there anyway, and I thought that it wouldn't hurt to have the option to connect to mains water when  the water co eventually get around to replacing that pipe.

 

The mentality of the water co seems odd to me.  They know they are going to have to replace that pipe soon, at a cost that's not a lot less that the price that they gave me for a supply, I suspect, as the total run of that pipe is around 190m.  If they had half a brain cell they could have seen they were getting a bargain if I offered to pay around half the cost of the pipe replacement in return for a connection to it, as not only were they saving money, but they would be gaining a customer, and hence an additional source of long term income.

Edited February 11, 2017 by JSHarris
Forgot to capitalise a letter "A" at the start of a sentence

[mvincentd]

Does seem hard to second guess the water co's....the maps can be woefully inaccurate, the precise ownership status of the pipe can be 'unclear', the size/material/age of the pipe can be unknown....along with the ability of the pipe to supply an additional dwelling without an all-round negative effect on water pressure.  I didn't disagree with the strategic conclusions they reached for me in the end, but I don't like the price of the connection.

 

[swisscheese]

OK - what the Water Co. appear to be saying via email is:

 

"From the information I have, supplying your property from the main in great close would involve laying the service pipe through 3^rd party land, this is something we try to avoid as it can cause disputes and access issues if the pipe were to leak or any future alterations that may be needed to the supply."

 

So it is a main, so connection could be possible, and I note the caveat "From the information I have", obviously I'm not sure where the main ends, but the Water Co seems to think a service pipe to our property would need to cross a 3rd party piece of land,  I will have to go out and investigate, just seems ridiculous that we are unable to connect to the nearest Main, and instead have to cross a road and lay in excess of 40m of service pipe.

[Jeremy Harris]

What they seem to be saying is that although they already have way leaves in place for the properties under which that other pipe runs, they would rather not negotiate one with the owner of "number 1" in your plan.  There's nothing to stop you doing this though.  If the owner of "number 1" is agreeable, then you can get a way leave agreement drawn up and connect to that main.  As the connection to your plot would then be a communication pipe, it would become the responsibility of the water co once in service, and they would need to make the connections at either end.

 

Well worth having a chat to the owner of "number 1" and seeing if they are agreeable.  The water company seem to be implying that they would be unwilling to use their statutory powers to cross that land, but there's nothing at all to stop you coming to an agreement with the land owner.  The way leave would need to be granted to the water co, but I can't see a major issue there, they do this all the time.

 

It's usual under these circumstances to offer a one-off inconvenience payment to the owner of the land  you want to dig up, but frankly I can't see that being massive, unless that neighbour is particularly opposed to your development.

[swisscheese]

Thanks, the owner of the land is the Local district council as the properties in Great Close are mostly still Council properties (sheltered accommodation bungalows, mostly elderly) and number 1 certainly still is.  I can try and speak to Number 1 but they have been quite "sensitive" about the works.  

 

Is there a method to go through the district council, with regard to way leaves on council properties.

[Jeremy Harris]

The council should have a point of contact for whoever looks after those properties, so a dig around on their website and a few phone calls is probably the best way forward.  They can refuse permission, but it can't hurt to ask, as it doesn't look from the plan as if it would be very disruptive. 

 

If you can ask the resident of the property if you can look in the garden of that house, to locate the stop cock marked, and take a few photos and measurements then you'd be better armed if you end up talking to a council jobsworth, perhaps.   The council should be well-acquainted with way leaves and should understand that the water co will have responsibility for the pipe, anyway, so I can't see any major problems, other than the council wanting to charge you a disproportionate fee, perhaps.

[Temp]

On ‎2‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 16:10, swisscheese said:

I can try and speak to Number 1 but they have been quite "sensitive" about the works.  

 

Before you do that I would go on the land registry web site and download the title plan for Number 1. That only costs a few £ and you get the plan immediately. See if the main is on their land. If not find out who's land it is on. It might be necessary to pay for a map search which costs a bit more in time and money.

Edited February 17, 2017 by Temp