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DIY Spiral (but not round :-) Cellar advice

DeanAlan

By DeanAlan
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DeanAlan Member

DeanAlan

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Hi All,

 

Walking my wife through the NSBRC centre back in Oct we walked past the Spiral Cellar company display and I couldn't block her view ?. A conversation was had along the lines of "while you are digging the foundations, can't you just dig a bit deeper". Anyway, having initially said "no way we can afford to do that" I then found myself Googling and stumbled across https://community.thewinesociety.com/t/build-your-own-spiral-wine-cellar/4457

 

Just about to enter the Build Reg design stage and have SE engaged on the main renovation and extension design. Will certainly needs my SEs input (he has already given a little).

 

Looking at building a 2m x 2m x 2m square basement structurally and then fitting it out as a circle and putting in one of the http://www.stonecellar.co.uk/cellar-doors/ semi-circular doors.

 

Basic structure would be a Butyl liner, STEPOC blocks walls (probably the 300s) reinforcement bars and concrete.

 

My questions at this stage are:

 

Q1: From a trial hole we know the water table is currently at 1m below ground and we're looking to the cellar to be 2m head height. How would you keep it dry enough to lay the butyl and pour the concrete floor slab. Would we need to drive in some heavy duty steel shuttering but even then will the hole just not fill to the water table level. Is it a race - ie lay the butyl and poor the slab to create some weight to counter the hydroscopic pressure?

 

Q2: related to the above, keep it stable enough (with lower half being below water table) to put the blocks in to then concrete fill them? Would I need to put in internal bracing (horizontal Acroprops or just plain timber bracing)

 

I had actually thought about dropping in some large (2.4m wide) precast, waterproof, concrete inspection chamber units (like these https://www.drainagesuperstore.co.uk/product/stanton-bonna-concrete-manhole-ring.html) instead of build in STEPC or other labour intensive work. These are expensive and would need craning in but will need a crane for the block and beam units anyway so might be able to coordinate.

 

Dampness and coolness is obviously the objective here (and it is uninhabitable from a building regs perspective which obviously makes it a lot easier/cheaper to build as basements go).

 

As always, thoughts from this group really appreciated.

 

cheers,

-Dean

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DeanAlan Member

DeanAlan

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@MortarThePoint yes that reminds me, that is why I had thought that it was probably better to build the structure square. My initial idea was those inspection rings but less keen now.

 

On the topic of the block and bean - thinking that actually maybe the right thing to do is  (for the half that has solid ceiling) bridge the beams over - to the expected supporting walls either side - so that the cellar walls aren't structurally connected to the floor above so that there is controlled movement opportunity (a vertical expansion gap if you will).

 

As you can tell (and why I am here) very much in the inception phase of this idea.

 

Plastic tank - like a large water butt (or even a cheap septic tank) upended and cut - as the impermeable membrane instead of a butyl liner - and then put structural blockwork (STEPOC?) inside?  Would this be cheaper? I assume idea would be to get as close to a guarantee of waterproof as possible. I assume you can get square plastic tanks to this dimension. Good idea - have me thinking outside the box about a box ? 

 

cheers,

-Dean

 

 

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PeterW Advanced Member

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I converted an old garage pit into a cellar and if I did it again I would use the concrete rings. 
 

I would cast rectangular pad 150mm thick and reinforced with something like A393 and loop some lift points into the corners and then set a 300mm ring on to this with a decent mortar and haunch the ring. Then lift this into the bottom

of your hole and set level and stack the rings on top - yes you may have a water table issue but if you then line it with a butyl liner it will  stay dry. 
 

Cap it at the top with a standard man access cap and then you can do whatever you need to bring it up to level

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DeanAlan Member

DeanAlan

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Some great ideas here @PeterW and @MortarThePoint

 

Water in the tank before pouring concrete - if that was the approach I took rather than formed (square) from blocks. Might have to get the Firebrigade out to fill it and empty it. Was looking at products and likely over 4000ltr (https://www.kingfisherdirect.co.uk/underground-water-tanks/3400-litre-underground-water-tank-2).

 

Ideas - keep'n'coming

 

cheers,

- Dean

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DeanAlan Member

DeanAlan

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If I dropped a in tank like that one @PeterW (nice find - as an example) I wonder whether I would need a concrete base (externally) suspect not. 

Then pour concrete around the outside (a waterproof concrete mixture I guess, or at least one that will set underwater - you can get that can't you - probably called marine concrete or something, I can't google and type at the same time.). Concrete floor internally but more for weight and solidity under foot. The external concrete would be for strength - retaining wall effectively.

 

This is sounds cheaper by the minute - can't be right!

 

Might even have some money left buy a bottle of wine to put in the middle. [aside: these wine cellars can hold circa 1000 bottles, I can't afford that much good wine]

 

- Dean

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DeanAlan Member

DeanAlan

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Looks like we (and I do mean "we" ) have a plan here.

 

I'm going to run the (second hand) tank idea, filled with water and cast around idea past my SE and watch his expression.

 

I was almost wondering whether two tanks would be better. If I could find inner one of 2m and outer one of 2.6+. Cut end of outer one, drop it in, drop in some block to make sure there is a gap, pour bottom slab to the level of the blocks, drop in the inner one, start filling inner one with water and then start pumping concrete into the gap between them (maybe with steel mesh I would have had to preformed to 2.25m diameter.

 

When concrete has started to go off, cut top of inner one and (actually, why would I fill with water when it is a wine cellar, I could make it a wine tank ? )

 

I'll let you all know my SE feedback and then share progress. Likely not until March.

cheers,

-Dean

 

Much thanks @PeterW and @MortarThePoint

 

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DeanAlan Member

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So I've found plenty of tank options for this project and my preference is for an outer tank with 600m+ greater radius and to put one inside the other and use it to form the concrete and give double the waterproofing.

 

One concern I have is displacement pressure - not sure if this is the same as heave/hydrostatic pressure.

 

If I used the single tank approach and poor concrete then I think there is a great chance that the outer concrete will gradually leak water and cause the inner tank to be pushed up - float. Whilst it will have bottles of wine in, it is not going to weigh more than the body of water (1m of it would be below water table) it is displacing.

 

With the double tank approach then the weight of the concrete is within the boat (so to say).

 

Concrete is about 2.5 (little less I think) denser than water so (in pure tank terms) if half the tank is below the water table then the bottom half(ish) of that (quarter of the tanks depth) would need to be filled with concrete. Does that sounds right?

 

So a 2m deep tank sitting flush with ground level where water table (it is very high at the moment) is 1m bellow ground would require 1/2.5 of the that 1m height displacement to be concrete to counter the displacement upward pressure. 

 

The maths is more complicate for the double tank approach (I can work it out) but whilst the outer tank is bigger (more displacement, more upthrust) the full height of the concrete wall (300m ish thick) adds to the weight of the boat trying to avoid floating.

 

If the cellar wall was part of the house structure then the weight of the house would bare down on it as well which would be massive but at the moment I had it sitting below, and unbound, block and beam floor.

 

I feel my cellar is floating but the idea is sinking a little.

 

If my outer tank is a 6000ltr tank and the inner one is 5000ltr then I have (in ltr) 1000ltr of water volume to replace with concrete in the walls so at 2.5 density ratio is 2500ltr. The water table is half way up the 6000ltr tank so 3000ltr of water displaced by 2500ltr of concrete - that boat is floating, not resting on the sea bed. I need another 500ltr of weight and at .75ltr per bottle of wine I would need to keep 666 bottles of wine permanently stored there.

 

Maths has never been so much fun ?

 

My SE is going to love me.

 

cheers,

- Dean

 

PS just find this SE design workup for spiral wine cellar. Beyond me but it talk about the stuff above in a LOT more detail https://www.rbkc.gov.uk/idoxWAM/doc/Other-1973973.pdf?extension=.pdf&id=1973973&location=Volume2&contentType=application/pdf&pageCount=1

Edited by DeanAlan
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