Protected lobby/hallway building regs

[alex199]

Hi there, wondering if anyone could give me any advice, I recently converted my studio flat into a 1 bed which involved putting up a stud wall, replacing an existing window that was covered up with a new double glazed one, I also removed a doorway and door to create a more open plan hallway area/lounge. Have recently sold the flat, somehow throughout this whole process no one told me that I needed to get building regs approval (don't ask..), so have paid for regularisation/retrospective approval with my local council building control. Have been speaking to one of their people over the last few weeks sending pics of stuff etc and have an inspection in a few days time. Although it has been a bit of a fight have and I think I was assigned quite a new/junior person have managed to get their approval on most things eventually. One thing they seem adamant on is replacing the archway into a door again. They want a protected lobby/ hallway area which I think is written in ADBV1. My flat is a very small first floor flat in a converted Victorian building which has 2 storeys and 4 flats in total. One ground floor flat which has its own entrance at the front and is completely separate, and 3 flats (2 first floor and 1 second floor) with an entrance to the side sharing a communal staircase. My flats floor level is less than 4.5 metres, roughly measured was 3.6 metres from ground level.

 

1. My flat is in a building that was converted into flats in the early 80s - does it definitely come under a block of flats or can it be classed as a dwelling? (as the building was converted into flats) being classed as a dwelling would seem to allow me to have the open plan layout but the building control seem to class it as a block of flats - its not really your standard purpose built block of flats.

 

2. I am basically looking for ways around putting in a door/doorway again where the arch is now, as this will create a very small impractical hallway around 3ftx4ft in size, where doors will open onto each other etc - if anything I would class it as more of a fire risk/trap but that's my opinion... I do understand the reasons behind protected lobby's. The flat front door opens directly onto the shared communal staircase. Is there any reason I could not class the living room area as the protected hallway as essentially you access all rooms from it as it's now open plan. Have attached the floorplans of the flat before and after the work.

 

Also if installed one of those permanent fold out fire escape ladders on the outside of the building going from the bedroom window (which is a fire escape window and goes down to a shared secure alleyway) thus creating 2 means of escape from the flat would this change anything? I also thought of replacing the kitchen door to a fire door with smoke seals, front door to a new fire door with smoke seals and all the mains connected smoke/ heat alarms which building control want installed anyways...surely in a flat so small this is suffice? It just seems like there is a slight lack of common sense when it comes to my local building control.

 

Any help or ideas would be much appreciated! Cheers 

[DevilDamo]

So to summarise... the top image is what you had, the bottom image is what you have now and the BCO has asked for a door to be provided/reinstated between the Living Room and Hall?

 

If this is the case, it sounds like the BCO is trying to make sure there is a protected escape from the Bathroom or Kitchen to the communal stair/lobby. However, both Bathrooms and Kitchens are not considered to be inner rooms (ADB, Volume 1, Paragraph 3.7) so having the open plan Living Room as the ‘access room’ in my opinion should be permitted.

 

There is the other case of the escape from the Bedroom only being possible via the Living Room. However, this can be overcome should the Bedroom have a window that meets the means of escape requirements (ADB, Volume 1, Paragraph 3.6).

 

Can you ask the BCO the reasoning for wanting the separation?

[alex199]

Thanks for the reply DevilDamo,

 

Yep that's - the top floorplan is before, the bottom is after I converted the flat. Basically the BCO wants a door reinstated between the hallway and the living room, after I enlarged the old existing door opening and put an archway in - creating one general access room like you say. Problem is reinstating the doorway creates a tiny hallway which seems mad to me where you open the front door and you block the door to the living room etc, the flat is small as it is!

 

have a virtual tour link you can look at I made when selling the flat- https://my.matterport.com/show/?m=JcjwZ5YfNJe&brand=0

 

I have a fire escape window in the bedroom, and the flat is first floor so the inner room scenario is allowed.  A different BCO is coming tomorrow for an inspection, no one's been round so far to look so will be interested to find out what he thinks,.

 

Some of the stuff the BCO has said so far;

 

"Protected lobby - Protected lobbies are designed as part of the communal flats means of escape strategy as you have now removed the internal door to the newly formed bedroom you have compromised the fire strategy for the building".........But the newly formed bedroom has a door?

 

"A FD30 door is required between dining room & protected hallway in accordance with Approved Document BV1" ....Which seems to me slightly over the top having so many fire doors in such a small flat. Before I started the conversion in the old layout the only fire door was the front door.. and also I don't have a dining room

 

The other thing they are adamant on is mains connected smoke and heat alarms everywhere which I know is now a requirement, but also a fair amount of work getting them interlinked and wired above the ceilings etc.

[Mr Punter]

You have made the bedroom into an inner room with the only escape route through the living room.  I am not sure if the window meet the regs.

 

You no longer have a protected hallway, so there is only you front door between the the living room and the communal area.  They will want the lobby protected with FD30 doors and the archway reinstated as a door.

 

Having done works needing building regs, they can ask you to up the spec with mains heat and smoke alarms as they are the current regs.

 

@DevilDamo surely it is ADB volume 2 that this needs to comply with?  It is a flat, not a dwellinghouse.

 

[DevilDamo]

@alex199 There are some alterations you could carry out which would enlarge the Hall. This would involve pushing the door into the Kitchen further into the Kitchen, more or less aligning with the external wall to the Living Room. Then have the door between the Hall and Living Room closer to the Kitchen end... if that makes sense. But a bit of a ball ache to have to carry out those alterations at this stage in the process. But as you’re selling, would it really be the end of the world if a door did go on as it’d be then up to the new owner should they decide to remove it? Or a sliding/pocket door could also work.

 

@Mr Punter As stated under Paragraph 0.1...

 

”This approved document has been published in two volumes. Volume 1 deals solely with dwellings, including blocks of flats, while Volume 2 deals with all other types of building covered by the Building Regulations.”

[alex199]

Thanks for all replies devildamo and mr punter,

 

Yeah I've just sold the flat, I don't think the buyer will have any issues with me re-instating that door to create the protected hallway area again so will probably end up doing that and replacing all the doors/installing the alarms etc..bit of a pain, but I know now for future projects to get building control involved at the outset :). I do hope the window is an escape window otherwise is going to involve a lot of work.

 

About the window am sure I read the approved document as stating the route through the window may be at an angle rather than straight through - but how do you measure this exactly? seen various diagrams and have seen this written a few times about means of escape windows.

 

The window should be provided with an open able casement that will give a clear opening dimension of at least 450mm in any direction and an over openable area of at least 0.33m², in practice the smallest casement would have to be at least 450mm x 740mm to achieve the 0.33m² area

 

I think the open plan situation would have been accepted for a dwellinghouse, but if I am classed as a block of flats (which makes sense I guess ..) like you say that changes things, was wondering since the building was converted into flats in the 80's and is not really your average purpose built block of flats if there would be any exceptions to the rule but I don't imagine there are.

 

 

[DevilDamo]

The majority of escape windows have parliament style hinges so as the window opens, it does not compromise the escape clearance. It’s those kind of situations where the clear opening can be measured straight through. Where you have windows of which the back edge starts pulling in away from the jamb, this will reduce the ‘straight through’ clear opening and which is why you’d apply the angled approach. When the window is open, will it provide a clear opening of min. 450mm wide x 750mm high in addition to the window meeting the other requirements?

 

Your Bedroom should meet Paragraph 3.7e (Page 20).

 

It doesn’t matter if it was a single dwelling house and is now a flat as similar rules for both situations apply. But the rules prior to the conversion works may have been different. There are still a lot of older flatted properties with Bedrooms that rely on going through a Living area to reach the front door.

[alex199]

I think the window does, got some pics below took before for them, it doesn't stay open at the max on its own hopefully that shouldn't be an issue. Otherwise I think you can replace the hinges on the window which would save replacing the whole window I guess, it meets all the other requirements height from the floor etc.

 

 

 

 

[Mr Punter]

58 minutes ago, DevilDamo said:

@Mr Punter As stated under Paragraph 0.1...

 

”This approved document has been published in two volumes. Volume 1 deals solely with dwellings, including blocks of flats, while Volume 2 deals with all other types of building covered by the Building Regulations.”

 

Nice.  I did not know there was a new version.  Mine was from 2013!   It make sense to have all the resi in 1 volume.  Has much else changed?

[alex199]

Thanks for the advice, am sure will be an expensive visit by the BCO tomoz lol wish the builders and everyone had told me some of this stuff in the beginning though...

[PeterW]

1 hour ago, alex199 said:

The other thing they are adamant on is mains connected smoke and heat alarms everywhere which I know is now a requirement, but also a fair amount of work getting them interlinked and wired above the ceilings etc.

You can back to back them between walls - seen that done a few times. They have to be placed correctly but it’s not an issue. 

[DevilDamo]

54 minutes ago, Mr Punter said:

 

Nice.  I did not know there was a new version.  Mine was from 2013!   It make sense to have all the resi in 1 volume.  Has much else changed?

Oh gawd, I don’t know ? The main BR requirements for what I’m involved with haven’t changed ‘much’ so just tend to stick with stuff I know. If I am wrong, Building Control will soon tell me ?

 

@alex199 Your opening dimensions appear to comply as they provide a clear openable area of 0.5. How high is the cill above floor level as it should not exceed 1.1m? As for the hinges, Paragraph 3.6d states...

 

”Windows should be capable of remaining open without being held.”

 

So you would need to replace the existing hinges.

Edited December 30, 2020 by DevilDamo

[alex199]

Cheers DevilDamo, Yeah I think it does comply, is well under that from floor level. It stays open wide enough on its own I think, but it won't stay open at it max 90degrees for example without being held would drop a bit, hopefully that's not an issue..bit chilly atm to be replacing windows  

[DevilDamo]

Looks to be around 840mm to the opening so that’s ok.

 

If the window stays open to a point where it provides the min. escape requirements then no need to change the hinges. As you have a 750mm wide opening, you would only need 450mm at the base.

[alex199]

It easily stays open at 450mm at the base, brilliant thank god for that...just the doorway , fire doors and smoke/heat alarms to sort out then, I reckon they should do a 'building regs for dummies' book for newbies like me ? 

 

[ProDave]

Re smoke alarms.

 

If your lighting is wired "loop at light" then you can get a power feed from each light fitting and use RF linked alarms which in a retro fit with no access above would be how I would do it.

 

Kitchen will need a Heat alarm and a CO alarm.  Aico (my prefered choice anyway) make a combined heat and CO alarm in one package.

[Mr Punter]

1 hour ago, ProDave said:

Kitchen will need a Heat alarm and a CO alarm

 

Would he need a CO alarm to comply with building regs?  He is not letting out.

[DevilDamo]

A carbon monoxide alarm would only normally be required to rented properties and to rooms that contain any appliance which burns, or is capable of burning, solid fuel. This may therefore not apply in this situation and a min. Grade D2 Category LD3 system would be required.

[ProDave]

5 hours ago, Mr Punter said:

 

Would he need a CO alarm to comply with building regs?  He is not letting out.

It is a requirement in Scotland for rooms with a combustion appliance (in this case gas boiler and hob)

 

If it is not a requirement in England, it should be, and why would you not want one?  Particularly as you can get it built into the heat alarm.

 

And it is there should the buyer wish to let it.

[alex199]

Had quite a friendly chap from the council building control come round on Thursday, thankfully the window is fine and compliant, would need to re-instate the doorway to the living room with a FD30 fire door which I knew already, kitchen door is a fire door already which came as a surprise as it didn't look like it so don't need to touch anything else. 

 

He seemed to think my existing battery smoke alarm set up was fine and there would be no need to upgrade to mains powered smoke and heat alarms if I'm reinstating the protected lobby, but he's going to chat with his colleague who I've been dealing with until now (bit of a jobsworth) so expect I will have to put them in due to the inner room scenario, but will find out tomorrow.

 

Thanks for the advice ProDave, am going to be getting an electrician in anyways as would need all the certification from him and maybe the alarms would need a separate switch in the fusebox? not sure. Still unsure where they want the smoke alarm or alarms, bloke wouldn't tell me without talking to his colleague. Hopefully just one smoke alarm in the protected hallway/lobby area would be the easiest solution for me as the fusebox is there. If they wanted an alarm in the bedroom (inner room) then getting power from the light fitting would be the easiest option as you said - but then you wouldn't be able to turn it off without turning all the lights off? but it wouldn't matter so much in the bedroom as burning the toast in the kitchen probably wouldn't set it off in the bedroom . It would seem ludicrous to me to have 2 smoke alarms in such a small flat, hopefully common sense will prevail. Obviously the heat alarm in the kitchen, Aico do a heat & co alarm, thanks is a very good idea as atm I have a separate co alarm in the kitchen, the aico one is about £60 but since is being wired up I might as well do it properly. 

 

Problem is burning the toast will probably wake up the entire building being such a small flat, where as now if I can't get the battery powered smoke alarm in the hallway to stop I just remove the batteries temporarily, with the mains powered ones - the buyer could flick the switch off in the fusebox but they would still have battery back up inside ..so would be waving the dishcloth at them until they stop I guess ? 

[ProDave]

The normal for smoke alarms is one in the living room, one in the hall and a HEAT alarm in the kitchen.  you don't need one in a bedroom but the bedroom door must be within 3 metres of an alarm and the living room would cover that,

 

All smoke alarms have a button that has the dual function as a test button and a silence button when they do go off.

[DevilDamo]

1 hour ago, alex199 said:

would need to re-instate the doorway to the living room with a FD30 fire door

What is the BCO’s reasoning behind this?

[alex199]

Hi DevilDamo, apparently when the BCO came to visit he identified the existing doors were fire doors so the replacement door would have to be no worse than before. Anyways I've been told I need the fire door with 3 hinges and the wireless mains powered alarms in the kitchen and lounge then they'll issue the completion certificates. Have agreed to all that...well I don't really have a choice..? Its not the end of the world and hopefully it won't take too long to get everything done, hopefully get it all sorted by the end of the week.