Shared Drain... *Hypothetical Question*

[Mulberry View]

Our house is on a Private driveway currently used by 3 houses, we are the furthest of the 3 away from the road and our house has been on a Septic Tank since it was built in the 1950's. If we were to develop our plot, as is our intention, we had thought we'd put both the current house and the new build on modern treatment plants and we still might if its advantageous.

 

However, the other 2 houses are connected to the sewer.

 

The owner of the driveway suggested to me that he would be happy for us to connect to the sewer pipe that runs along his driveway. What stops us doing that and not even involving the local water board? Do these types of drainage connections have a capacity limit?

 

Here's a diagram of what is there at the moment. The Blue shows the existing drain, serving 2 properties. The red arrow is the position of our Septic Tank (roughly), the green being the theoretical route for us to connect to the current drain, along with a further branch should we divide our plot.

 

This question is not about the legal access rights that I know we'll need, just about the physical connection at this stage.

 

.

[tonyshouse]

Is it down hill?

[Mulberry View]

Just now, tonyshouse said:

Is it down hill?

 

Yes.

[Dave Jones]

snap his hand of now!

 

Get a manhole connected to it on your land ASAP.  A local builder could do it no problem.

[Mulberry View]

Just now, Dave Jones said:

snap his hand of now!

 

Get a manhole connected to it on your land ASAP.  A local builder could do it no problem.

 

Could I just take advantage of his kind offer and run a pipe up to my driveway for now and potentially connect one or both properties to it at my leisure?

[Dave Jones]

put a 300mm chamber on your land, the lowest in the ground possible to still give you fall then connect onto the pipe in the road. The materials will be less than £100+re-enstating the drive.

 

A days work for a groundworker with a digger, done just that on our build. 

 

They dug down found the pipe in the lane, cut it and put a plastic 'T' with rubber boots to go from plastic to clay and filled it all back in. 25m run and they were done by lunchtime.

 

https://www.wickes.co.uk/Wickes-Clay-to-Plastic-PVCu-Drain-Adaptor---Black-110mm/p/430042

 

As long as you dont have to go deep then a 300 chamber will suffice.

 

https://www.screwfix.com/p/floplast-3-inlet-mini-access-chamber-base-black-300mm/18837

 

Dont call anyone just do it.

[Mulberry View]

1 minute ago, Dave Jones said:

put a 300mm chamber on your land, the lowest in the ground possible to still give you fall then connect onto the pipe in the road. The materials will be less than £100+re-enstating the drive.

 

A days work for a groundworker with a digger, done just that on our build. 

 

They dug down found the pipe in the lane, cut it and put a plastic 'T' with rubber boots to go from plastic to clay and filled it all back in. 25m run and they were done by lunchtime.

 

https://www.wickes.co.uk/Wickes-Clay-to-Plastic-PVCu-Drain-Adaptor---Black-110mm/p/430042

 

As long as you dont have to go deep then a 300 chamber will suffice.

 

https://www.screwfix.com/p/floplast-3-inlet-mini-access-chamber-base-black-300mm/18837

 

Dont call anyone just do it.

 

Excellent. The good thing here is that everything is downhill, even the theoretical pipe we'd need to serve the new build, so the chamber wouldn't have to be particularly deep. I can see a slight risk that we might need to use a 'backdrop' connection as it's a little steep as it approaches where it would connect to the 'Blue'.

 

Thanks.

[Dave Jones]

the point is, you want the chamber on your land to be as deep as possible while still giving fall, this way you have maximum flexibility for your plot. For example if you need a long run from the back of the house to the chamber, if its shallow you may run out of fall.

 

Work on 13mm of fall per M as a minimum.

[Mulberry View]

27 minutes ago, Dave Jones said:

the point is, you want the chamber on your land to be as deep as possible while still giving fall, this way you have maximum flexibility for your plot. For example if you need a long run from the back of the house to the chamber, if its shallow you may run out of fall.

 

Work on 13mm of fall per M as a minimum.

 

There's no doubt about it, the distance from our desired build position to the place we'd put this initial manhole is significant. In fact, if you refer to the above diagram, we're hoping to build in the South-East corner. With the issue of fall aside (I'll need to investigate that), should I be concerned about a drainage run this long for any other reason? For proportion, the whole plot is about an acre, so I guess the run from the new build to the manhole might be 70m!

[Dave Jones]

is where your planning to put the house higher or lower than where the chamber to the road will be ?

 

If its lower by 13mm/M to the farthest point on your build then away you go. If its not then you have a pumped chamber, add a few more quid to the build.

 

Either case infinitely better for you and the valuation than being on a stink tank.

 

 

[PeterW]

Grey area in law as you can’t install a sewer connection without the permission of the sewerage provider, and you can’t install a new connection to a property without building regulations approval. However, both of these assume it is to a property... 
 

You would also need a legal easement for the driveway as without it your nice neighbour could sell up and new nasty neighbour could block your drains off and you have no legal standing. That could cost you £’000 in the future when they realise you’ve just made £’000 developing the plot ... 

[Mulberry View]

4 minutes ago, PeterW said:

Grey area in law as you can’t install a sewer connection without the permission of the sewerage provider, and you can’t install a new connection to a property without building regulations approval. However, both of these assume it is to a property... 
 

You would also need a legal easement for the driveway as without it your nice neighbour could sell up and new nasty neighbour could block your drains off and you have no legal standing. That could cost you £’000 in the future when they realise you’ve just made £’000 developing the plot ... 

 

If I were to feel confident that the current owner will stay in his property for the forseeable, could we potentially look to indemnify the risk after 12 months to protect us from a potential new owner kicking off?

 

It's not a bad driveway situation in all honesty, the part we'd need to connect to is upstream of the landowners property. The 'upper' part of the driveway myself and my neighbour use is of no real interest to the landowner. Of course I know he owns it and I respect that, but he doesn't care much about it.

 

He lives away, this is a second home for him. They spent an absolute fortune converting it, which is why I think they'll own it for many years to come and I know they'd like to move up into the property as their main home one day.

Ultimately I guess, we'd have to keep in our minds that in the worst case scenario, we might have to go back to a tank if it all kicked off. The current Septic tank is in dire need of sorting out, it's got a 70ft Swamp Cypress growing (very well I might add) literally right on top of it, so I find it hard to imagine that the roots from that haven't torn right through the current arrangement.

[PeterW]

You can’t indemnify for an easement - you either have permission or you don’t. And you will need to ensure you have rights to dig it up to repair it if needed - if it was damaged then you can’t just dig up someone else’s land to repair it. 
 

Also, what is the right of way over the driveway ..? Is it a covenant or private RoW afforded to your property ..? The issue is that you cannot reassign that to another property as you do not own the access. 

[Dave Jones]

26 minutes ago, PeterW said:

Grey area in law as you can’t install a sewer connection without the permission of the sewerage provider, and you can’t install a new connection to a property without building regulations approval. However, both of these assume it is to a property... 
 

You would also need a legal easement for the driveway as without it your nice neighbour could sell up and new nasty neighbour could block your drains off and you have no legal standing. That could cost you £’000 in the future when they realise you’ve just made £’000 developing the plot ... 

 

an easement is most definitely nice to have but not the end of the world. Can get an indemnity.

 

In reality no one is going to dig up the road and cut your pipe off.

[PeterW]

15 minutes ago, Dave Jones said:

an easement is most definitely nice to have but not the end of the world. Can get an indemnity.

You cannot get an insurance indemnity policy for something that you knew about ..! There is no insurer who would take on the risk, and it is one of the questions they ask when you take indemnity policies out. 
 

An easement - with a willing neighbour - will cost £3-400 and goes with the land and the deeds in perpetuity. A gentlemen’s agreement when £’000 is at stake is a significant risk, and the insurance policies would be similar cost if you tried to find one, probably more. 

[Dave Jones]

of course you can ! Shared access is one example, I've driven over it for x years without a problem but no idea who owns it.

[Mulberry View]

1 minute ago, PeterW said:

You cannot get an insurance indemnity policy for something that you knew about ..! There is no insurer who would take on the risk, and it is one of the questions they ask when you take indemnity policies out. 
 

An easement - with a willing neighbour - will cost £3-400 and goes with the land and the deeds in perpetuity. A gentlemen’s agreement when £’000 is at stake is a significant risk, and the insurance policies would be similar cost if you tried to find one, probably more. 

 

My thought is that we'll need to tie some legal loose-ends up if we develop, so this will probably form part of that work. I'm debating whether I'm better to grab the opportunity now to put the physical pipe in for what little work it'll take, but wondering if he might think I'm trying to lift his leg if I later announce that I want to develop my property and that's not how I want to be.

 

I think we'll end up having a candid chat with them soon, where we can gauge their feelings on the whole thing.

[Mulberry View]

2 minutes ago, Dave Jones said:

of course you can ! Shared access is one example, I've driven over it for x years without a problem but no idea who owns it.

 

That was my thought. Someone I know had to indemnify as his deeds granted him enough rights for access, but not for services. Who knows, I certainly don't want to pull the wool over the landowners eyes, that's not my intent, but this feels like a really easy way to get the current house off this Septic Tank!

[PeterW]

13 minutes ago, Dave Jones said:

of course you can ! Shared access is one example, I've driven over it for x years without a problem but no idea who owns it.

You can’t !! You cannot in English Law assign a right of access to a third party that you do not hold in law or deed. 
 

The existing property owner has right of access by usage, you cannot build 2 more properties then assign the rights from the first property as they do not have the legal historical use. 
 

12 minutes ago, Mulberry View said:

Someone I know had to indemnify as his deeds granted him enough rights for access, but not for services.

That relates to his access to an existing property based upon unchallenged historical use. I have done this very recently with a new build and the only reason the indemnity policy was granted was the property in question used an existing access that had been used for 15+ years without challenge. What I could not do was split the land and create another access onto the road and then take out an indemnity insurance as the basic premise of right of access cannot be re-assigned. 
 

16 minutes ago, Mulberry View said:

this feels like a really easy way to get the current house off this Septic Tank!

I would do that, but it requires building control approval (replacement drainage is notifiable) and BCO will check with the sewage provider that they are happy - so I would look at doing it all above board, get the easement in place and sleep easy. If it’s done properly then you could look to use it in future but that would be a discussion I would have now with the landowner. 

[Mulberry View]

Just revisiting this as I've done some more investigating.

 

I've received the Water Authority plans and it shows that their service runs along the road, but does not run into the private drive. So, I'm guessing it'll be an indirect connection via the private drain that we'll be looking for.

 

I can see from the water authority site that their charge for applying for an indirect connection is substantially lower than the direct connection, but does anyone have any experience of what the full quote might be? I'm assuming I'll be responsible for all the physical work on site as they won't want to touch the private drain anyway, but I'm conscious that I might get my pants pulled down by them regardless and end up regretting going down the official route.

 

Is there a chance that they'll reject it on the basis of increasing the number of properties it serves from 2 to 4? It looks in good condition and all runs downhill in a straight line, but I guess that won't stop them from wanting to charge a stupid fee to appraise it or whatever.

 

Presumably, I'll need to also notify Building Control?

 

As far as the deeds go. There is a conveyance in our deeds that was exchanged when the plot was originally sold in the 1950's. Among other things, it grants access for the existing property. When I had it legally inspected, the solicitor suggested that the access granted would transfer to the divided plot, presumably because it applies to the shaded area on the plan and doesn't refer to how it is divided.

 

 

We would, however, have to tighten up the rights for services and so will seek a modification to the existing deed, with which the landowner is currently cooperating.

 

I would prefer to be above board, but just don't want to end up regretting calling it out, once it is said, it cannot be unsaid!!

 

 

 

[Mr Punter]

I think they charge about £250 for sewer connection fees.

[Mulberry View]

45 minutes ago, Mr Punter said:

I think they charge about £250 for sewer connection fees.

I just called them.

 

Apparently they acquired all private drains that serve 2 or more properties several years ago. So I need a direct connection. £327 application fee, £571 'infrastructure fee', then my responsibility to contract the work. It becomes a little confusing to think about how we'll apply/pay when it comes to connecting the existing property and later the new one, but I sensed a way to merge some of the fees.

 

She did, however, admit that although they acquired these drains, very few of them are mapped. They also suggest that with an indirect connection, they might not even come to inspect it.

 

So, my question is, with the correct provision in the deeds and permission from the landowner, what stops me installing a new chamber further up the drive, even up to the existing property, connecting that to the existing pipe in the drive (of course observing all regs) and then just calling them at some point before we sell to highlight that we've discovered that the property isn't served by the septic tank as we first thought, please bill us for sewage as this doesn't appear to have been done thus far. This removes any complications for a future buyer and will get everything onto the system. Our searches when we bought the place said that we're on the mains drains anyway, but they aren't billing us, so there's been an admin error somewhere.

 

Eventually, when we want to connect the new property up, we'll apply correctly, and will be making a connection to the 'new' chamber and will do that above board.

 

Plan?

[Mr Punter]

Where we are there is a lower connection fee but I think they have increased the infrastructure charges.  I have never know them to inspect a connection but have once been asked for photos when we made a late change to our proposal.

 

There is nothing stopping you installing a new chamber but you will probably need the consent of the sewerage undertaker.  If you are connecting a property that was not previously connected you will need to fill in the form and pay the connection and infrastructure fees.  The wastewater charges are often on your water bill.