Tinkering with the design post permission

[puntloos]

We're pretty close to applying for planning permission. (I might post a few final designs etc shortly!). Our architect feels we should just 'go for it' and worry about internal details a bit later, rather than getting things 'perfect'. I'm tempted to agree, tinkering costs £, but clearly changing your mind later costs more. 

 

Questions I have

 

1/ Moving windows

 

Compared to the current "final design" as created by the architect, we have already updated our views a little, for example we have a walk-in closet whose orientation we intend to flip.

 

 

Presumably Planning people don't care too much about internal design changes, but as you can see this example has implications for where the window goes.

 

Would "people" (neighbours? planning officers? building officials?) care if we made minor modifications such as this without extra planning permission rounds? Of course I get that minor changes can become majorish and then major at some point, but let's say just shuffling windows around 50cm to and fro? 

 

2/ Basement

We've been toying with the idea of a basement for ages. Would it make sense to just put a 'dumb basement design' in (e.g. exactly the same size as the garage, straight below it) and then later (.. post Brexit post corona post stock crash post.. whatever else 2020 decides to throw at us) decide if we can afford it?

 

3/ Gable depth

We have protruding (out of the building line) gable. Currently it protrudes maybe 40cm. But, with it, we have a hallway that is 'okay' but for stairs design reasons could use about 40cm depth more. Same with the gable room above.. it's 2m20 wide, while 2m60 would make it a better room.

 

The architect has elongated the gable only 15 cm:

 

with the suggestion that after the initial planning approval, we should ask for an amendment moving the house back 25cm into the garden, then extending the gable with the final 25cm. His reasoning is that you'd want the first impression of a house planning request to feel 'right' and moderate, and once you have that planning permission in, adding some "incremental, but non-critical" approvals are much easier afterwards, plus not the end of the world if we can't get them..

 

4/ Engawa!

The Japanese know what they're doing when it comes to relaxing architecture. I like the idea of making our garden room an engawa-style affair. (in my laymen's understanding you basically "retract" the window somewhat, leaving an overhanging ceiling, and a small walkway.). 

 

Would we need to design this into the PP design beforehand? My hunch is 'no', if the outer line of the engawa would be at the same place as the normal wall. But, if I want to 'add an engawa' the actual wall with window would still be in the same location, but the house roof, and floor would be extended out by (say) 1m. Would that be okay after-PP?

 

5/ Specialist Review

We're considering hiring a few specialists for a couple of hours to look at the plans to spot any major mistakes. In particular:

 

- Timber Frame Company - to make sure they can do it, and to get an idea of cost

- Passivhaus Builder - to see if there are any glaring flaws in heat design, e.g. too many windows or wall not thick enough that will trip us up
- Home Cinema Guys to make sure the planned projector/screen/speakers and wiring should work

- Awning Company - 'will it fit'?

 

What do you think - good idea? Unnecessary? Any other specialists to roll in? As for the builder they are of course on our shortlist but we made it clear we won't necessarily go with them

 

 

 

[nod]

Costs a sight less changing mind now 

As apposed to mid build 

 

Planners have no interest in internals 

 

Great time to find something constructive to do 

[Jilly]

I found myself tinkering forever (and still am!) I would go for it and find out how you stand, in case you have to think about an Appeal.  You can change the internals easily later on the Building Control Drawings and windows usually on a Non Material Amendment. But some things might be specified on your Planning Conditions.

[Temp]

Is the window at front or back of the house? Does it look better or odd when moved?

[AliG]

Having looked at these questions, people could probably help if you post some plans.

 

Is it that your architect just doesn't want to make minor amendments? Maybe they think that you will either give up on them or you can be charged to do them later. Certainly interior changes that don't affect the outside can be left until later, but not much later if you are going timber frame.

 

Planning are very slow usually, so the less you have to deal in the future the better.

 

1. Window move. You might get away with a small move without an amendment, but that is large enough that it should probably have an amendment. Why not just change now to avoid future cost and time. 

 

2. It seems that basements might be PD, however that would only count after your house is built. Thus I think the correct route is to add one, you don't have to build it. It may rile up the neighbours if they are close by so only add it if planning to have it.

 

3. Again seems the architect is being awkward unless there is more of a planning issue than we know about. Planning can always ask you to make it smaller.

 

4. If you want to add extra to the house it would need PP. Again it could be PD but assuming that you would add it as part of the build it needs permission if it changes the size of the house. If you do it the other way then move the window in, I am not sure about the letter of the law, but doubt it would be an issue. At worse it is an amendment, 1m of extra roof would likely not be.

 

5. Timber Frame Company - You can get a price from the current plans. The price will not change materially with minor amendments. I just got two quotes through on a 96% completed plan.

 

Passivhaus Builder - Not sure exactly who you mean but you would get better advice here than almost anything you might pay for. Your architect should know these things but most do not. If you are planning a passive house you likely need to assume that the outside walls are around 450mm thick. Indeed looking at the small plan above it does not look like they are thick enough. This considerably adds to the footprint of a house.

 

Home cinema guy - No harm asking here, I got advice from guy. Wiring shouldn't be a problem. The unusual things you may need to allow for are extra deep walls for speakers to be in them and the minimum distance needed for the projector to throw on the size of screen that you plan, usually around 5m.

 

I know nothing about awnings.

 

 

 

[puntloos]

 

On 19/04/2020 at 17:54, Jilly said:

I found myself tinkering forever (and still am!) I would go for it and find out how you stand, in case you have to think about an Appeal.  You can change the internals easily later on the Building Control Drawings and windows usually on a Non Material Amendment. But some things might be specified on your Planning Conditions.

 

Are non-material amendments a big time sink? Esp with covid I imagine that it'll take a while to get stuff through. Of course you can tinker until you're old and grey but the 'exact' location of windows, especially the bathrooms and walkin is indeed kinda TBD and 'floating'.

 

On 19/04/2020 at 18:29, Temp said:

Is the window at front or back of the house? Does it look better or odd when moved?

 

Back of the house, and no major oddness. A little I suppose, rather than spaced evenly one window would now be a bit closer to the other. 

 

 

On 19/04/2020 at 19:14, AliG said:

Having looked at these questions, people could probably help if you post some plans.

 

Done! 

On 19/04/2020 at 19:14, AliG said:

Is it that your architect just doesn't want to make minor amendments? Maybe they think that you will either give up on them or you can be charged to do them later.

 

I don't think they worry we are giving up (plus why would be planning submission speed matter..) but indeed I can't quite work out what their rush is. The only reason for rushing (other than 'financial') is that it's probably good to have things standing before winter sets in.. 

 

On 19/04/2020 at 19:14, AliG said:

Certainly interior changes that don't affect the outside can be left until later, but not much later if you are going timber frame.

 

Fair point, TF is "soonish"

 

On 19/04/2020 at 19:14, AliG said:

Planning are very slow usually, so the less you have to deal in the future the better.

 

1. Window move. You might get away with a small move without an amendment, but that is large enough that it should probably have an amendment. Why not just change now to avoid future cost and time. 

Tempted to agree with you. Can you define 'small' though? The moves I'm thinking about are 50cm either direction

 

On 19/04/2020 at 19:14, AliG said:

2. It seems that basements might be PD,

PD?

On 19/04/2020 at 19:14, AliG said:

however that would only count after your house is built. Thus I think the correct route is to add one, you don't have to build it. It may rile up the neighbours if they are close by so only add it if planning to have it.

 

Why would neighbours care? 

 

I'm .. tempted for sure.. but it is expensive of course. I should perhaps wait to see if my financials bounce back after covid.. 

 

On 19/04/2020 at 19:14, AliG said:

3. Again seems the architect is being awkward unless there is more of a planning issue than we know about. Planning can always ask you to make it smaller.

 

Do you mean a planning team can 'approve on the condition I make xyz (e.g. the gable) smaller'?

 

On 19/04/2020 at 19:14, AliG said:

4. If you want to add extra to the house it would need PP. Again it could be PD but assuming that you would add it as part of the build it needs permission if it changes the size of the house. If you do it the other way then move the window in, I am not sure about the letter of the law, but doubt it would be an issue. At worse it is an amendment, 1m of extra roof would likely not be.

 

Yep, well, the idea is to not really "add" so much as move gable forward 25cm but move entire house backward 25cm so not a major difference, just a minor garden impact.

 

On 19/04/2020 at 19:14, AliG said:

5. Timber Frame Company - You can get a price from the current plans. The price will not change materially with minor amendments. I just got two quotes through on a 96% completed plan.

 

Nice, yeah I'll go do that

 

On 19/04/2020 at 19:14, AliG said:

Passivhaus Builder - Not sure exactly who you mean but you would get better advice here than almost anything you might pay for. Your architect should know these things but most do not. If you are planning a passive house you likely need to assume that the outside walls are around 450mm thick. Indeed looking at the small plan above it does not look like they are thick enough. This considerably adds to the footprint of a house.

 

I'm not going 'full Passivhaus' unless it's literally a tickbox at some point, it's not a goal.

 

As for wall width, I star

On 19/04/2020 at 19:14, AliG said:

Home cinema guy - No harm asking here, I got advice from guy. Wiring shouldn't be a problem. The unusual things you may need to allow for are extra deep walls for speakers to be in them and the minimum distance needed for the projector to throw on the size of screen that you plan, usually around 5m.

 

My main concern indeed is screen-projector-seating distance calculations. In my current design I'm mounting the projector 'into the kitchen' (see https://forum.buildhub.org.uk/topic/14363-critique-my-final-design-almost-ready-for-planning-permission/) 

 

 

On 19/04/2020 at 19:14, AliG said:

I know nothing about awnings.

 

 

 

The ones I'm having in mind are built into the wall..

[AliG]

I'll make a few comments on the plans in that thread

 

48 minutes ago, puntloos said:

Quote

3. Again seems the architect is being awkward unless there is more of a planning issue than we know about. Planning can always ask you to make it smaller.

 

Do you mean a planning team can 'approve on the condition I make xyz (e.g. the gable) smaller'?

 

Yes, planning can easily say things like that. The architect is probably worried that the gable is already ahead of the houses either side and that you might be pushing it.

 

52 minutes ago, puntloos said:

Quote

Planning are very slow usually, so the less you have to deal in the future the better.

 

1. Window move. You might get away with a small move without an amendment, but that is large enough that it should probably have an amendment. Why not just change now to avoid future cost and time. 

Tempted to agree with you. Can you define 'small' though? The moves I'm thinking about are 50cm either direction

 

I suspect legally speaking almost anything would officially be an amendment, but if it is so small no one would notice then I think you can get away with it. I would probably put this in the 10-20cm range.

 

54 minutes ago, puntloos said:

Quote

2. It seems that basements might be PD,

PD?

Quote

however that would only count after your house is built. Thus I think the correct route is to add one, you don't have to build it. It may rile up the neighbours if they are close by so only add it if planning to have it.

 

Why would neighbours care? 

 

I'm .. tempted for sure.. but it is expensive of course. I should perhaps wait to see if my financials bounce back after covid.. 

 

PD is permitted development. There are things you are allowed to do to an existing house without needing to apply for permission, but it doesn't kick in until the house is built.

 

Neighbours will definitely care. In general assume they will object to anything because they don't want building work next door. Their objections, however, usually are not over relevant matters. If you want a basement near to one of the houses next door the neighbours will complain that it will affect their houses, I doubt it is close enough to be an issue, but it won't stop them trying. Thus they are less likely to object if there is no basement.