europa Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 Hi, everyone. I have a seven-port, five-zone Wundafloor UFH system, with a Heatmiser wiring centre. I've been trying to get my new Salus actuators to calibrate properly. But I'm having an total nightmare with them. The main problem is that on three of the seven loops, the actuators do not shut off the flow when powered off. The actuator pins simply do not understand how far to move. This does not happen on the other four ports. Wundafloor has kindly sent me replacements, but they have made no difference. Wundafloor thinks that the issue could be the Heatmiser wiring centre. But i don't see how. After all, it doesn't happen on all the ports and the actuators simply need 230V and the wiring centre supplies this. I'm at the point of giving up and going back to standard electric actuators. Do any of you have any ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temp Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, europa said: Wundafloor thinks that the issue could be the Heatmiser wiring centre. I went to the Wundafloor website to look up about these actuators and I noticed it says... https://www.wundatrade.co.uk/shop/home/quick-shop/wundatherm-quick-shop/controls-quickshop/actuator-auto-balancing/ Quote *Please note Heatmiser thermostats are Not compatible with our Auto balancing actuators. Really? What's so special about Heatmiser stats? Are they sure the incompatibility isn't due to some quirk of their actuators? Heatmiser stats work pretty much like most other makes of stat. Have they given an explanation for this? Edited January 31, 2020 by Temp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 I have Salus autobalancing actuators and haven't had any issues with them. The only thing I can think of that may cause a problem might be if the actuators aren't screwed down tightly enough when they are first powered up. On first power up they go through a calibration routine, that sets the throw of the actuator, I believe. Having said that, I've removed and replaced them when fiddling around with the system and still not had any issues with them. Overall I'm impressed with both their performance and with their speed. They turn on a lot faster than the older wax type actuators, and they seem to hold the set temperature differential pretty well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joth Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 The Salus installation manual says if you power on the actuator for 20-60secs then power it off and wait for LED to light then power it back on, it will enter re-calibration mode. That could make it behave weird. Is the Heatmiser more likely to trigger that sequence for some reason? Does it try and do its own actuator modulation maybe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joth Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 Also when did you buy them? Maybe also have a look at this thread? And https://forum.buildhub.org.uk/search/?q=Salus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temp Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 (edited) Some makes of stat can call for short bursts of heat unless you programe them to have a minimum cycle time. Pretty sure the default settings for the Heatmiser stats we have in our house would allow a 20-60 second call. Perhaps see "Feature 04 Output Delay" in the Heatmiser Manual. I think that effectively sets a minimum cycle time but check with Heatmiser. Edit: on some models it's Feature 05... Feature05 – Output Delay: To prevent rapid switching, an output delay can be entered. This can be set from 00 -15 minutes. The default is 00 which means there is no delay Edited January 31, 2020 by Temp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
europa Posted January 31, 2020 Author Share Posted January 31, 2020 1 hour ago, Temp said: I went to the Wundafloor website to look up about these actuators and I noticed it says... https://www.wundatrade.co.uk/shop/home/quick-shop/wundatherm-quick-shop/controls-quickshop/actuator-auto-balancing/ Really? What's so special about Heatmiser stats? Are they sure the incompatibility isn't due to some quirk of their actuators? Heatmiser stats work pretty much like most other makes of stat. Have they given an explanation for this? 1 hour ago, joth said: The Salus installation manual says if you power on the actuator for 20-60secs then power it off and wait for LED to light then power it back on, it will enter re-calibration mode. That could make it behave weird. Is the Heatmiser more likely to trigger that sequence for some reason? Does it try and do its own actuator modulation maybe? Here's the weird thing. WF tech support told me that the latest actuators (which i have) have been redesigned by Salus to be compatible with Heatmiser. They apparently have a lower IMAX (whatever that means!). It's worth noting that the startup sequence is pretty similar whether in calibration or non-calibration mode. That is, the led always flashes rapidly for almost two mins before anything happens. That is weird and makes it difficult to know whether they are in calibration mode or not. This behaviour and Joth's comment make me wonder whether sth is happening that causes them to go into calibration mode every time! But i can still not understand why the Heatmisers should be causing this. 230V is 230V regardless of the source, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
europa Posted January 31, 2020 Author Share Posted January 31, 2020 1 hour ago, joth said: Also when did you buy them? Maybe also have a look at this thread? And https://forum.buildhub.org.uk/search/?q=Salus Thanks. I had actually already read that thread (as i have a similar issue) and discussed it with Salus tech (which has been pretty useless). Two of my loops are quite short, and, on one of them, the Salus actuator is totally throttling the flow - closing the valve completely. The result is that the heating effect stops for quite some time - up to 20 mins - before the actuator then overcompensates and opens the valve fully. Salus tech support said that the only way for them to check the firmware is for me to send them to them. WF support said this behaviour is typical on some shorter loops. If so, then that is surely an inherent flaw in the design, and makes these actuators pretty useless in practice. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
europa Posted January 31, 2020 Author Share Posted January 31, 2020 The other thing ive noted is that the LEDs never flash at the stated 0.25 Hz (as per the instructions) at start up. Instead they flash rapidly, sth like 2-4 Hz. Salus tech support had no explanation for this. They also couldn't explain why the instructions state the temp probes should be attached 10cm from the manifold and facing forwards. This isn't poasible on the flow pipes as the actuators are too large. Salus could only say that maybe they are incompatible with the WF manifold. Yet these are the only AB actuators that WF sells! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
europa Posted January 31, 2020 Author Share Posted January 31, 2020 1 hour ago, Temp said: Some makes of stat can call for short bursts of heat unless you programe them to have a minimum cycle time. Pretty sure the default settings for the Heatmiser stats we have in our house would allow a 20-60 second call. Perhaps see "Feature 04 Output Delay" in the Heatmiser Manual. I think that effectively sets a minimum cycle time but check with Heatmiser. Edit: on some models it's Feature 05... I don't have the stats, just the wiring centre. When I power up any of the actuators, the wiring centre calls for heat continuously until i switch them all off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temp Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 2 hours ago, europa said: I don't have the stats, just the wiring centre. When I power up any of the actuators, the wiring centre calls for heat continuously until i switch them all off. Did you mean to say... When I turn up any Stat the wiring centre calls for heat until I turn them all them all down? That's correct behaviour. The wiring centre performs a Logical OR function to generate Boiler Enable (BE) and turn the manifold pump etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temp Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 3 hours ago, europa said: The other thing ive noted is that the LEDs never flash at the stated 0.25 Hz (as per the instructions) at start up. Instead they flash rapidly, sth like 2-4 Hz. Salus tech support had no explanation for this. I'm wondering if you are never seeing a calibration cycle? The manual here for the THB230 mentions recalibration... https://www.salus-controls.eu/products/thb230-thb24-auto-balancing-actuator Re-calibration Before starting the re-calibration procedure, disconnect the actuator from the power source. To re-calibrate, apply power to the actuator and wait at least 20 seconds then switch off the actuator within 1 minute of the power on. Wait until the LED goes out. The actuator will now perform the calibration at the next power on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
europa Posted February 1, 2020 Author Share Posted February 1, 2020 (edited) 11 hours ago, Temp said: Did you mean to say... When I turn up any Stat the wiring centre calls for heat until I turn them all them all down? That's correct behaviour. The wiring centre performs a Logical OR function to generate Boiler Enable (BE) and turn the manifold pump etc. No, as i said before, i don't have standard thermostats. Instead, i use an automation system to monitor the temp in each zone and switch the wiring-centre zones on and off as required. However, for calibration/testing, i have disabled the automation and am manually switching on the relevant zones in the wiring centre. So, when i switch on a zone in the wiring centre, it powers the relevant actuator, generates boiler enable, calls for heat and switches on the pump. Edited February 1, 2020 by europa clarification 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
europa Posted February 1, 2020 Author Share Posted February 1, 2020 9 hours ago, Temp said: I'm wondering if you are never seeing a calibration cycle? The manual here for the THB230 mentions recalibration... https://www.salus-controls.eu/products/thb230-thb24-auto-balancing-actuator Yes, that is quite possible as I've tried this procedure numerous times and i have never seen the claimed 0.25Hz flashing behaviour. The problem is that Salus tech support seems unable to confirm the correct behaviour, and WF tech support thinks that rapid flashing (as opposed to 0.25Hz) is actually the correct behaviour and indication of calibration! If only Salus could tell me if their instructions are right or wrong! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temp Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 Perhaps worth just hooking an actuator to the mains via a switch and manually trying to put it into calibration mode? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
europa Posted February 1, 2020 Author Share Posted February 1, 2020 (edited) 50 minutes ago, Temp said: Perhaps worth just hooking an actuator to the mains via a switch and manually trying to put it into calibration mode? The thought did cross my mind, but extra work so haven't tried yet. EDIT: Have now tried. I get the same rapid flashing, so have to assume that is the correct behaviour. This gives me the feeling that the issue is not the wiring centre. Edited February 1, 2020 by europa update 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temp Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 Did you try it with the actuator on the valve? Was it one of the three problem actuators and did it make any difference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFDIY Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 I've got one circuit doing the same thing, not shutting off. I've re-calibrated it about 5 times. My current situation is I've got it to work by calibrating it with the actuator nut about 1mm undone from the manifold, I then did the calibration, once completed I tightened down the actuator back onto the manifold. This fools the unit where the closed position is so it pushes the valve pin a bit further and shuts the loop off. Not ideal, but salus didn't even respond to my email about the problem, seems I wasn't alone in this issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
europa Posted February 1, 2020 Author Share Posted February 1, 2020 1 hour ago, Temp said: Did you try it with the actuator on the valve? Was it one of the three problem actuators and did it make any difference? No, i just wired it to a plug. So, only thing it confirmed was the behaviour on calibration. WF sent me a new set of actuators, so I'm trying again from scratch. Haven't tried the three problem actuators yet, but will do so (and update) tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temp Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 I wonder how they know when the valve is closed? My guess is they measure the motor current and look for it increasing when the motor is stalled? Perhaps a stiff valve pin is fooling the micro in the actuator? I dont know if it's possible to lubricate these valves. Some web sites say you can use a silicone spray. If all the valves are the same make/type then perhaps you could calibrate all the actuators on one of the "good valves" then move them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
europa Posted February 1, 2020 Author Share Posted February 1, 2020 36 minutes ago, JFDIY said: I've got one circuit doing the same thing, not shutting off. I've re-calibrated it about 5 times. My current situation is I've got it to work by calibrating it with the actuator nut about 1mm undone from the manifold, I then did the calibration, once completed I tightened down the actuator back onto the manifold. This fools the unit where the closed position is so it pushes the valve pin a bit further and shuts the loop off. Not ideal, but salus didn't even respond to my email about the problem, seems I wasn't alone in this issue. Good to know I'm not the only one with this issue! Salus tech support is pretty useless, and the call wait times are atrocious, so I'm not surprised you didn't get a reply by email. They appear to have little practical knowledge of the actuators, and could mainly only advise me to follow the instructions. However, they did imply that the instructions may not be that accurate and suggested that calibration takes far longer than the 15 mins stated in the instructions. And that does seem to be the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
europa Posted February 1, 2020 Author Share Posted February 1, 2020 6 minutes ago, Temp said: I wonder how they know when the valve is closed? My guess is they measure the motor current and look for it increasing when the motor is stalled? Perhaps a stiff valve pin is fooling the micro in the actuator? I dont know if it's possible to lubricate these valves. Some web sites say you can use a silicone spray. If all the valves are the same make/type then perhaps you could calibrate all the actuators on one of the "good valves" then move them? The pins don't seem any stiffer than the others and can easily be pushed down with a finger. Not sure it would work to calibrate on one of the good valves and then move them, as the actuators work by finding the point of min flow - this becomes the default position when higher delta T required - and, for some reason, this seems to vary on the valves. Also, the max flow rate on each loop varies, so i guess that might also have an effect. But thanks for the suggestion - worth a try if all else fails. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temp Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 (edited) 13 minutes ago, europa said: the actuators work by finding the point of min flow I saw that but wondered how they could detect that point? I can see they could turn on the flow a little until they measure some small temperature rise but what if the system is already hot when its calibrated? Two mins isn't a lot of time to allow temperatures to change and stabalise. Perhaps it only reliable if you run the calibration on a totally cold system? Would be great to have a hour with the person that programmed it! Edited February 1, 2020 by Temp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFDIY Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 The calibration notes advise to run an increased manifold temp for the calibration exercise, so that the actuators always see a rise. If the manifold temp is falling it will fool the actuator as the supply will be dropping but the return stay the same briefly and it's looking at the difference between the two. Anyway, when starting the calibration I believe the actuator incrementally opens the valve until a temp rise is detected, then uses this as a base point for valve closure. On the flow rates being different; Each floor loop will have a different length and therefore heat loss, so the actuator opens to whatever point gives a 7c difference (assuming manifold temp over 30c) so understandably the flow rates for each loop will vary, it's the temp differential which it's driving for. So on a cold floor you will more flow than one that is already warm. I calibrated mine after being off for two hours initially- but I still have one with the same issue as you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
europa Posted February 2, 2020 Author Share Posted February 2, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, JFDIY said: The calibration notes advise to run an increased manifold temp for the calibration exercise, so that the actuators always see a rise. If the manifold temp is falling it will fool the actuator as the supply will be dropping but the return stay the same briefly and it's looking at the difference between the two. I start to wonder whether this is at least part of the problem. I'm not sure how reliable the manifold thermometers are, but the temps they show are very erratic. Often, usually at the start of calibration when the valve is closed and the HW flow has nowhere to go) the thermometer temp on the return side is higher than that on the flow side (as the flow is pushing against the return i think). But even during normal operation, my flow temp varies a lot and there is no way (that i know of) to prevent this. Out of interest, when calibrating, did you do one loop at a time (keeping all other loops closed)? Edited February 2, 2020 by europa . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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