Zoothorn's Build Plan

[zoothorn]

Hi again chaps. I'm at the final stage of prep for my extention: to form a Build Plan.

 

My builder's happy with me to go the 'Build Notice' route, bc A) its a simple, small design, B) he knows the BCO well from many years & builds (& calling the BCO, whose been helpful, said he knows my builder very well too).. & C) he's known to be the best builder around here = I have confidence in him.

 

So I need to do the Build Plan with just the basic/ critical dims on (Doors & window positions, corner points, ceiling H etc). I asked if he had a prior plan I could use for reference- & he's given me this. So not a "Full Plans" one like this below.. but a simplified version.

 

I wonder what method I could use. Anyone know if there's a simple PC 'draw' software something that I could use for eg?

 

Thanks- zoot

 

 

 

 

[zoothorn]

Hi- can anyone lend any advice on this plan I need to do?

[the_r_sole]

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Edited September 26, 2019 by the_r_sole

[andyscotland]

If the plans are only for your builder, you might be quickest / easiest with a pencil and ruler (scale rule ideally to avoid risk of arithmetic errors on your dimensions).

 

You would of course then need to work out all the dimensions first in "real life" and then draw them, rather than doing the drawing first and measuring things from it.

 

You obviously have the advantage it's an extension rather than new build so a lot of the dimensions can be measured from the existing structure. For some it may even be better to give a nominal dimension (for costing/materials ordering) and instruction to set out on site so it e.g. lines up with / is at right angles to some existing wall of the house.

 

Most simple drawing software would be either time consuming or impossible to get accuracy of dimensions / angles etc so not really suitable for construction drawings.

 

There is free CAD software available, but probably not worth the time it will take you to learn to use it effectively.

[zoothorn]

@andyscotland yes good advice: I've dipped in to a free software thing, but immediately can't tell my arse from elbow to even do a rectangle.. would take me a week to get the knack.

 

Ok. Assuming I go the draw myself route. He said I don't need to do plan of existing house/ just the Ext. And its a simple design.

 

Would 3x A3 sheets be sufficient, physical A3 size do you think? (2x for overhead views of room 1, & room 2 above.. 1x for front view).

[zoothorn]

23 hours ago, the_r_sole said:

what drawings do you currently have and what has the builder been quoting from?

I know you have confidence in your builder but you still need to define exactly what you want him to build!

 

But this is exactly why I need to do the build plan for him. He's quoted from my 'architctural consultant' plans submitted for PP. These are not sufficient for build plans, afaik, & separate more detailed ones are then required for him to build from- hence my thread.

[the_r_sole]

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Edited September 26, 2019 by the_r_sole

[zoothorn]

1 hour ago, the_r_sole said:

 

that's what I don't understand, either the builder has quoted for what he is going to build and knows what that is - or he is waiting for more detailed information to be able to properly price the job. 

 

 

I just don't understand this. Afaik I have been given my quote.

 

I need to do my build plan. I've explained in #1 that my builder is happy to do the build via a Build Notice. He just wants me to do some basic plans. He's happy to build off these, & I've explained why.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 29, 2019 by zoothorn

[andyscotland]

@zoothorn I must confess I'm a bit confused too.

 

3 sheets of A3 with plans and elevations would be fine for planning permission level drawings - showing the basic sizes and shapes of rooms and describing e.g. the materials for outer wall finishes.

 

But it sounds like you already have these from your architectural technician?

 

Construction drawings would generally include thinks like close-up details of the section through a wall showing the exact type/position/thickness of membranes, insulation, fixings etc. Or the way the sides and top of a window meets the walls. Or even just the precise setting out dimensions, which will need to take account of the thickness of materials, fitting gaps around window frames, how bricks/timber will meet at the corners etc, to end up with a building the size and shape you want.

 

My construction drawings for my fairly small extension and garage conversion run to 12 sheets of A3 cross-referenced to an 11 A4 page written specification.

 

Actually drawing those isn't the hard part. The hard part is knowing exactly how the building needs to be built. This is why it's generally done by an architect/technician with years of training, an experienced builder, or a self-builder with a fair bit of practical experience and a loooong time spent researching or borrowing details from manufacturers/neighbours/etc.

 

If your builder is going to figure out all the details, and you trust him to do so, and he just needs to know what size you want it and where the windows should go then I'd have thought the planning drawings should provide what he needs.

 

If he wants you to provide the details then as @the_r_sole says that could open a massive can of worms if you draw something that isn't compliant with regs / doesn't work in practice / isn't quite the right size.

 

The risk and cost impact of errors at this stage is very high.

 

I think you need to get clarity from your builder about exactly what detail he wants you to draw that isn't on the plans you already have.

 

And then take a step back and assess honestly whether you feel you have the knowledge to make those decisions. Or whether the time, cost and risk that would be involved in developing your skills to the point that you could is really worth it compared to paying either the architect or the builder to take responsibility for that part of the process.

[the_r_sole]

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Edited September 26, 2019 by the_r_sole

[zoothorn]

Can anyone help regarding wall thickness basics. I have a timber frame inner skin & its to be clad in block.

 

Are there industry-standard dimensions for these 2 skins? & if there's a cavity between, an industry-std dim for this too?

 

Then I can make a start on hand-drawing. Lower room is a box with a door in: surely I can get on with this. I have room size (outer), ceiling H, door width/ height, door placement. I have ceiling beam H @ 150mm. I have room to be stepped down 350mm. An internal 'entrance step' of 750mm.

 

That's all the info my builder requires for ground floor. I just need to draw this as well as I can.

[zoothorn]

8 minutes ago, the_r_sole said:

 

Quote = fixed sum for a defined portion of work

Estimate = sum, subject to change and qualifications for a portion of work which isn't 100% defined at the time of pricing

 

It's important to know which you have.

 

I don't know what your 20 steps have been but when we have inexperienced clients working on small jobs the process would be:

 

• Briefing and initial design - i.e. work out what you want, what is feasible and if you have enough money to do it
• Planning - Set of basic information for the sole purpose of gaining planning consent - pricing at this stage is likely to be based on square meter rates
• Technical Design - so either building regs or construction drawings, detailing every part of the project, involving structural engineers information and incorporating any specialist input - this is where, on a small job, you could get the project priced properly, it might not be a formal tender process for a small job with a known builder but the more information you have, the more accurate the price.
• Enter into contract with builder with pricing agreed based on up to date information

 

Mr. sole.. you see this is exactly the info I have been striving for, for almost 2 years. A simple step-by-step "guide" to give me the customer a brief guideline from which to proceed. I have had absolutely nothing of this sort, rather a total myre of my trying to establish what these steps might be: impossible frankly via a series of wild guesses & trial & error attempts. Eg even the very pg1 basics of how how on earth I get a quote, has been almost impossible for me to establish (& still I have no certainty I actually have such a 'quote', or an 'estimate', or a 'pricing').

 

At the moment though, having got to this last 2 steps (of my 20 steps I have had no other option but to have taken, fishing blindly in the dark, even with great help on here).. I can forget what I might have done/ should have done. I am here & from here I will see it through to getting the fkn thing built even my having gone round in 5 whole circles, 25 cul-de-sacs, 10 dead ends to get here. It doesn't matter now.

 

I have 2 things to do. The build plan. And applying for the build notice: I have all ready to send off for this/ today/ I know where I am with this (after 3 full days of attempting to understand how it is done).

 

So ONE tantalising step to do!! The Build Plan. So if you can advise on this alone, I'd be very grateful. Any advice on what you'd have done better, or what I should have done.. are all n/a now.

 

Thanks- zoot

[the_r_sole]

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Edited September 26, 2019 by the_r_sole

[zoothorn]

26 minutes ago, the_r_sole said:

 

This is why we get employed as professionals....

 

anyway, in your situation I would bite the bullet and get an architectural technologist to provide you with a set of suitable drawings, the questions you have about the wall construction illustrate that you really need the input of someone with proper expertise, this will protect you from cost over runs as there will be a defined project, and it will protect the builder from you thinking something is included in the price that isn't.

 

If you assume the liability for construction information it's likely to cost you a lot more than a set of professional drawings

 

No. This is exactly not what I need. I have explained quite clearly that my builder is perfectly happy to do this -simplest- of extensions, with decades of experience/ the best reputation around, via a Build Notice. A Build Notice doesn't neccessarily need Full Plans. And he has personally given me a set of plans from which he is perfectly happy for me to use as reference, to make the basic plan, of which this thread is -solely- asking about.

 

I have explained this.

 

Please, if you can help on this simplest of build plans- appreciated: that's all that's needed on this thread. Thanks.

 

zoot

Edited August 29, 2019 by zoothorn

[andyscotland]

20 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Can anyone help regarding wall thickness basics. I have a timber frame inner skin & its to be clad in block.

 

Are there industry-standard dimensions for these 2 skins? & if there's a cavity between, an industry-std dim for this too?

 

So this is a good example of the fact that - in the nicest possible way - you are very far into Mr Rumsfeld's "Unknown Unknowns" territory.

 

The simple answer is yes, basically, there are several industry standard dimensions for the skins - governed by the thicknesses of timber and block generally available.  However, the choice of which standard dimension to use (or whether to do something bespoke) is based on a host of considerations including:

• What u-value (insulation level) does the wall need to achieve?
• What type of blockwork? Different types of block are more / less thermally insulating.
• What types of breather membrane and vapour control membrane will be used, and where will they sit in the construction? Again these affect thermal insulation.
• What's on the outside of the blockwork? This affects insulation, weatherproofing and e.g. the cavity required.
• How exposed is the site / the wall? Is there wind loading? Driving rain? etc.
• Is there a need for a service cavity on the inside of the room for wiring / socket boxes etc (and if not, how will these be detailed to prevent water vapour getting into the wall and causing condensation)?
• What level of acoustic separation does the wall need to provide? This may govern the type of insulation - wool or foam board - which will determine the thickness required.
• What level of fire resistance does the wall need to provide? Again will impact thickness of materials as well as thickness and type of insulation.
• Is the wall loadbearing, and if so how much load and is it evenly distributed or on concentrated points?
• Does the wall need to meet up internally or externally with parts of the existing house - this may push you towards a non-standard combination of thicknesses to end up with a wall that fits the space but still achieves the right insulation etc (or is below-target for insulation but balanced by another wall somewhere else being thicker).

And that's just the factors that come immediately to mind.

 

If your builder is going to take responsibility for ensuring the whole project complies with building regulations, then your builder needs to consider all of that and decide what he's going to make the wall out of. And then he can tell you how thick the wall will be.

 

It's not possible for you to pick a wall thickness (or for people on the internet to tell you one) without understanding the various factors and calculations that need to go into that decision. That's a surefire route to (best case) designs that don't work and have to be changed on site, at your cost, or (worst case) designs that aren't compliant and have to be changed on site, at your cost.

 

It should also be apparent that unless someone has already gone through that thinking process and specified the type of block, thickness of timber, type of insulation, type of membranes etc you almost certainly only have an estimate. The different types of these products all vary wildly in price. How would your builder be in a position to commit to a quote without knowing which materials he's buying?

 

I honestly think you need to get a professional to walk alongside you on this stage of your project. It will save you an enormous amount of time, worry and money. Designing and specifying the construction details is an order of magnitude more complex than the entirety of the process you've gone through so far.

 

If you want to use the builder as your professional, and you entirely trust him, then you should not provide additional build plans. Instead, get it clear in writing that the planning permission drawings provide the outline dimensions and it's his responsibility to design (in discussion with you) and build a compliant extension that looks like the picture. He may, of course, not be happy to take the job on that basis and he will certainly expect you to pay for his time and expertise.

[the_r_sole]

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Edited September 26, 2019 by the_r_sole

[andyscotland]

5 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

No. This is exactly not what I need. I have explained quite clearly that my builder is perfectly happy to do this -simplest- of extensions, with decades of experience/ the best reputation around, via a Build Notice. A Build Notice doesn't neccessarily need Full Plans. And he has personally given me a set of plans from which he is perfectly happy for me to use as reference, to make the basic plan, of which this thread is -solely- asking about.

 

To boil it down. A Build Notice doesn't need Full Plans, but someone, somewhere still has to make all the decisions that would have had to be made to produce a set of full plans. All of these decisions have a circular relationship with (they affect, and are affected by) the internal and external dimensions of the spaces. Every dimension and material affects every other dimension and material.

 

There are basically two possibilities:

• Your builder is going to be responsible for making these decisions. In that case, he needs to produce the build plans himself (or use his experience and the simplicity of the project to do them in his head / on his fag packet as he's building). You give him the planning drawings you already have and he builds something that looks as close to that as possible while meeting the building regulations. If there are things on the planning drawing that aren't clear enough for him to work from, he asks you specific questions about what you want to achieve, and advises you on the implications of your answers.
• You are responsible for making these decisions, and your builder is just going to build what you tell him. In that case you need professional support.

[zoothorn]

My builder has given me a set of plans to go by. These are 2x block course. All I need do is replace the inner block course (the usual 100mm width chap Id be 99.9% sure of regardless of an unlimited host of other variables) with a simple timber frame. Its the -outer- cnr point he needs, not me to be critically correct re. the minutiae of wall construction: HE will take over this department! its the door placement, ceiling H, outer wall cnr points ---only--- he needs. Perfectly do-able for me, with a few Q's on this great site.

 

If anyone can help with my timber frame (inner) + std 100mm block wall, just the basics, many thanks. But if you prefer to lecture me instead, this is not helpful to me at such final stages. I have explained 3 or 4 big reasons why I am doing this plan not an arctct & I'm not repeating them.

 

Thanks- zoot

 

 

[the_r_sole]

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Edited September 26, 2019 by the_r_sole

[zoothorn]

11 minutes ago, andyscotland said:

 

To boil it down. A Build Notice doesn't need Full Plans, but someone, somewhere still has to make all the decisions that would have had to be made to produce a set of full plans. All of these decisions have a circular relationship with (they affect, and are affected by) the internal and external dimensions of the spaces. Every dimension and material affects every other dimension and material.

 

There are basically two possibilities:

• Your builder is going to be responsible for making these decisions. In that case, he needs to produce the build plans himself (or use his experience and the simplicity of the project to do them in his head / on his fag packet as he's building). You give him the planning drawings you already have and he builds something that looks as close to that as possible while meeting the building regulations. If there are things on the planning drawing that aren't clear enough for him to work from, he asks you specific questions about what you want to achieve, and advises you on the implications of your answers.
• You are responsible for making these decisions, and your builder is just going to build what you tell him. In that case you need professional support.

 No. Andy. Its precisely -halfway- between what you have just proposed here ^ is what's needed! Nothing more! IE

 

YES my builder's gonna be responsible (he's said so, he's happy to). NO he's not doing build plans himself, but instead, simply asking me to do them. Simple as that. Just the critical dims tho not full detailed plans!! (where do I want my door exactly? [MY DEPARTMENT]. But NOT what membrane & insulation U factor [HIS DEPARTMENT].

 

So for room1 give him a box of 4x4.5m, with door position X, of TF inner +100m block cladding construction. That is all I give him (its better I put a good industry std wall thickness, just cos it looks a bit better but for no more reason than that). That is all he is asking me for. From these 3 basics HE takes the reins: HE builds the walls to satisfy BCO: HE decides the membrane & C'tex "U factor" etc etc.. all the bread & butter basic guidelines he knows like the back of his hand from 45 years being a builder who now, has the best reputation around here.

 

 

 

I do not need professional support. I just need someone to tell me a common timber frame inner course thickness, & I can pass the buck on to my builder whom I trust. That is what he has asked me to do: and is expecting -nothing- more complicated at all than that from me.

[zoothorn]

6 minutes ago, the_r_sole said:

Good luck with it @zoothorn - there are loads of good books on timber frame construction, look out for the trada ones, they will help you understand the structural implications, bracing requirements, insulation/ventilation requirements etc to allow you to make the appropriate choice.

 

No. I am not a builder. This is a builder's remit/ department Mr Sole.. not a customers'.

[dpmiller]

is the TF being stickbuilt on site or is there a spec to go to a factory?

[the_r_sole]

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Edited September 26, 2019 by the_r_sole

[zoothorn]

1 minute ago, dpmiller said:

is the TF being stickbuilt on site or is there a spec to go to a factory?

 

Good Q dpm. Last time we spoke, I asked a layman's version of this question: he said the walls would be constructed off-site (then brought- no idea how) & positioned with one of those tractors-with-long-extendy-arm-on-front things, can't recall what proper name he said was, usually white tho in my head!

[dpmiller]

well at some point, this will then likely need input from a structural engineer surely?