Towel Rail (or radiator)

[Onoff]

Apologies those who've lived through this previously on eBuild, might be of interest to "new readers" though.

 

Amazingly time is approaching that I might be getting some plasterboard on! But.....

 

At the mo, other than the UFH (that's yet to be connected) there is no provision for "central heating". Why would I need it you may ask, bear with me!

 

The downstairs CH is an antiquated, 3/4" nom bore, single pipe system. It "hugs" the perimeter of the house walls at floor level and comes up to each rad via swept tees. This is the bathroom early on. You can see the old 3/4" pipe that ran in an L shape up the right hand wall and along under the window.

 

In gutting the room I in effect took this pipe and the rad out and rerouted it around the outside of the room. It was in the way for battening the walls and doing the floor.

 

So, below, this is the room pre the slab going down; bath on the right as you come in, basin far right corner. Then wet room corner far left, cupboard on the left as you come in on the left over the area with no UFH and a wall mount wc on the left wall towards the wet room corner.

 

 

There is then no practical place for a "rad" other than under the window as original. I keep referring to CH & rad.....this is because the wife HATES towel rails! She doesn't think they get towels dry and thinks they get so hot you burn yourself. She wants a "double radiator" under the window.

 

Is there a rad/cross towel rail of any sort I wonder that might fit the bill? Tbh I quite fancy a cast iron "school radiator" as a feature. (Pretty sure she hates them though).

 

So, irrespective of what "rad" I fit I haven't got any plumbing for it. Personally I think with the UFH the room will be lovely and warm. The rad/towel rail need only be on mornings and at night I'm thinking.

 

I could at a pinch reinstate the perimeter system using 22mm plastic maybe with a provision for turning it into "proper" F&R later. Therein lies another problem, I'd need to have the floors up through the centre of the house to run flow and return pipes.

 

Or....upstairs is a proper flow and return system. I could come off of that.....

 

Thought by jotting this down it might be clearer, it's not!

 

Hoping the collective might assist!

 

Cheers

[PeterW]

Ordinary rad with a heater element (or two) in it..??

 

plenty of decent mixed rad/rail solutions that would keep both happy ..?

[Mikey_1980]

We have brought a stainless steel electric towel rail, it's thermostatically controlled so temperature can be set between 40-60 degees and is controlled via a 7 day 24 hour timer, it works really well and does dry the towels.

[Onoff]

I was wanting to avoid an electric towel rail tbh based on cost to run.

[Temp]

We managed to get a good deal on a towel horse like this because it was a 2nd...

 

 

Ours is on it's own loop from the TS and has a pipe stat and time clock so we can control when it's on and the temperature. You can also get them with a rad in the middle but they can be expensive..

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Temp]

PS One reason towel rads can get very hot is because they are sometimes connected to the boiler HW system rather than the CH system. This is (was) done so that they come on at bath time and in summer when you don't have the CH running. Not an issue if you plumb it in on it's own circuit.

 

 

[Onoff]

2 hours ago, Temp said:

PS One reason towel rads can get very hot is because they are sometimes connected to the boiler HW system rather than the CH system. This is (was) done so that they come on at bath time and in summer when you don't have the CH running. Not an issue if you plumb it in on it's own circuit.

 

 

 

How did that work then running it off of the HW system? It'd only get hot when you ran the taps wouldn't it?

 

My HW cylinder is approx 12m from this proposed rad position the other end if the house and on the first floor.

 

I suppose you could have a brass pump?

[PeterW]

just in the return flow from the cylinder to the boiler - easily done. 

[Temp]

What Peter said. If it's not connected to the CH output they are typically connected to the primary side of the DHW system in the return from the HW cylinder to the boiler.

 

If you connect it to the secondary side of the H/W cylinder (eg the same water that comes out of the hot tap) then I think you need a special type of towel rad made of inert materials like stainless steel not iron as that water cannot be dosed with anti corrosion agents/Fernox.  

 

http://www.featureradiators.co.uk/Articles/Radiators for Secondary Return Hot water Systems.htm

 

 

[Onoff]

I'm tempted for speed to REINSTATE the single pipe CH pipe as shown in the picture in the first post. Maybe plumb it in such a way I can adapt to proper flow /return later.

 

Here's a weird thing, the ORIGINAL downstairs rads on the single pipe system: The way the pump is set up the feed comes in at the top of the rad (door end in the photo) via a swept tee at the bottom:

 

 

 

...and exits at the bottom via another swept tee.

 

 

Seems the wrong way round to me, hot rising  and all that. I wonder if the pump has been reversed maybe?

 

Edit: Reckon I'm into something according to this:

 

http://build-x.info/heating/12033

Edited September 13, 2016 by Onoff

[Nickfromwales]

Nope. It's spot on. Hot goes in the top and as heat dissipates it gets cooler towards the bottom and the cooler water leaves via the lower valve. 

Have you thought about running a pair of pipes from the towel rad to the Ufh manifold and putting it on it's own zone? I can't remember if your planing a buffer for the Ufh or not, but if your on oil then I'd not recommend running any such 'short' circuit from the heating system as it'll short cycle like crazy. If no buffer then I'd only run all these in unison, eg rads, Ufh and towel rad all on together so as to compact short cycling. 

Dont run single pipe, just run two 15mm pipes up to the 1st floor and pick up off the heating ( flow and rerun ) for the interim and then jump to the manifold later on if required. There is no practical way to convert single pipe to F&R later down the line so forget that IMO. 

If you want to go super flashy, make a single circuit kit for the towel rad alone and then you can set the temp via a dedicated TMV . Just needs a pump and a TMV. Simples. 

[mafaldina]

Nice wallpaper! And matching pink carpet, is there a candlewick bedspread to match?

[Onoff]

Thanks as always!

 

Bit tricky to run towel rail pipes on their own back to the EVENTUAL manifold position as the slab is laid but then I could conceivably run it from a "rad" under the window then within the dwarf wall alongside the bath and out the door. Let's face it I've already got the two UFH pipes lying on the floor doing nothing in the stairs room until I dig that up.

 

 

Back on eBuild you suggested and I bought a TMV and pump combined with the intent of connecting that into the single pipe system "for now" as in my for now..... I bought the one you found on eBay so have that already.

 

Or connect to upstairs where there is a flow and return pipe set up albeit a messy one.

 

Oil - no buffer yet.

Edited September 14, 2016 by Onoff

[Nickfromwales]

You ideally want to be lower temp than the flow and return ( boiler flow ) so either tmv or manifold for the towel rad is best. 

Buffer can go in the airing cupboard . Two birds one stone. 

[Onoff]

2 hours ago, mafaldina said:

Nice wallpaper! And matching pink carpet, is there a candlewick bedspread to match?

 

All original features I'll have you know!  The hall is WAY down the list. 

[Onoff]

2 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

You ideally want to be lower temp than the flow and return ( boiler flow ) so either tmv or manifold for the towel rad is best. 

Buffer can go in the airing cupboard . Two birds one stone. 

 

So is there an option to temporarily connect the UFH & towel rail to this same TMV, itself on the single pipe?

 

 

The UFH pipes go nowhere at the mo though they will cross this stairs room to a manifold on the wall eventually from where UFH will feed to all rooms. Wonder if the wife would go for a TS under the stairs (where the manifold will go).....its pretty central a point in the house.

 

 

I could bring pipes for the towel rail along the dwarf wall as above, behind the bath, then round the corner to the right of the trannie. From there could go under the yet to be excavated floor.

 

No airing cupboad btw!

 

[Onoff]

The original, untouched, downstairs rads are then in at the top and out at the bottom. All have swept tees in and out. Looking around a couple of rads have been added / moved previously but these have unswept compression tees and go in AND out at the bottom. My daughter  added one radiator to the downstairs, single pipe system when we lined and insulated the old coal shed (pantry, boot/tack room?). 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It actually works OK even though I...I mean SHE, went in and out at the bottom and used non swept tees. First rad on the system too btw.

 

This is the only heat in the room. Later it will have UFH. The only bugbear is that the original floor was about 6" down from the main house level. I just made a 4"x2" frame and laid it on wax paper direct on the original concrete. Later I'll ditch the fluffy stuff, put 75mm of PIR in there and a UFH pipe circuit.

[Nickfromwales]

In and out at the bottom is the most common tbh, so would work fine . Swept tees help but aren't vital. 

Flow in at the top was the old school way but is still commonplace in commercial jobs, but it is handy to have the TRV up where it's accessible, just not very pleasing on the eye imo. 

A TS would mean no buffer, and is a good partner for oil so good luck with negotiations. Plus it's better to have the heat loss downstairs too so win win.