Timesaver coupling - has anyone ever used one?

[Carrerahill]

Long story short, but as part of the house extension I needed to renew a cast soil stack and tie in some other basins and showers and things into a new single PVC pipe to create a single drop for all upstairs waste which let's me box the pipe in behind kitchen cabinets in the new kitchen. 

 

I had everything sitting there to do the job and as my wife was away last night I decided it was a good day to cut the old stack down and replace it.

 

Everything was going seriously well, when the house was built the brickies must just leave 3 bricks missing in each leaf of the cavity wall so that the plumber can then run in his soil pipe, then it looks like they just stuffed some bricks in the hole and the roughcaster simply roughcast over it all as when I started tapping around with my hammer it just sort of fell in! Which meant I ended up with a cracking space to work in, I was even able to vacuum out the lead cavity tray and clean it all up a bit!

 

So within about 5 minutes of going up the ladder I had the bricks all out and the bricks from the inner leaf out and I could literally see the pan connector. This was going to make it all rather simple!

 

So 9" angle grinder out and the stack is down, with lots of care taken to get a good level cut about 1' from the oversite concrete.

 

Then it was time to fit the Timesaver, for those of you who have never heard or seen one: https://www.wolseley.co.uk/product/saint-gobain-gt01-pipe-coupling-100mm/

This was sold to me (£25) as the bee's knee's, the "boy for the job", "the thing all the plumber use", "I have sold these for 30 years and that's the puppy" - so feeling rather confident I bought that and went to fit it... 

 

Errr:

 

 

Photo is not crystal clear but that is a fairly reasonable air-gap around most of the pipe, doing what I do for a living and hobbies I am used to small tolerances, things that just look right and create good seals - this did not fill me with confidence at all and for the money you sort of expect a neat fit. I Googled and it looks like no one has ever used one and made a YouTube video or forum post. I went to the plumbers merchant and spoke to the owner who rang up a plumber for me, I spoke to him and he said that they do wrinkle up a bit on tightening and don't always look neat - just tighten it down. None of this filled me with confidence either. I decided to give it a go, so with a new piece of PVC pipe on the factory clean cut end I made the joint, sort of difficult as the PVC pipe wanted to slide over the cast (it was almost a perfect fit, not that I would, but it was so tempting to cover the outside of the cast pipe in sealant and just sleeve the PVC pipe over it) so I manged to line it all up, got the centre lip which acts like a stop to sit right on the end of the PVC pipe then lined it all up and tightened down the collars. Looked OK - seal was sitting fairly square under the collars, felt solid. So I went and got the hose.

 

Hose on, water pouring out from the underside of the Timesaver - I knew it, there was no way that thing could work.

 

So I took it all apart and went to B&Q (now 20:15) with a piece of my cast pipe and I got hold of a guy in there who I know was a plumber and very knowledgeable, he was a little perplexed by it all but he, as always, was prepared to find a solution. 

 

Now if you Google PVC into Cast Iron, two options are at the top of the page, the spigot type McAlpine connector which pushes into the cast then has a standard PVC coupling on top to take the pipe and the flexible rubber type with two jubilee clips. However, if you look at the McAlpine connector it says 110mm cast iron pipe - my cast iron pipe is exactly 4" OD - or about 102mm. So the push in part with the seal wouldn't even look at the pipe I had!

 

The B&Q guy then pulled the rubber seal off the spigot connector and it slid into the cast pipe absolutely perfectly. So we both agreed that as the spigot was sleeved into the cast by about 60mm on a vertical section of pipe it should work fine, I also added a big bead of silicon round the top of the cast pipe so when the spigot bottomed out it sat down on and made a good seal. 

 

So it appears that I have an odd size cast iron pipe, so the Timesaver, flexible connector nor the McAlpine were ever going to fit! I am worried that this is a bodge, I hate things not being correct, but I know in soil and underground drainage things are a bit Heath Robinson looking sometimes. At the end of the day the thing I bought was to do the job I needed, the only difference being the seal that came with it was not used and through a tight fit and bead of silicon I think it will be good.

 

The only issue I see is if there was ever a blockage and the pipe started to back up, in theory it should never leak, in theory it didn't even need the silicon. But, as bad as it is, I am tempted to build some shuttering around it and pour in concrete over the whole joint so that the whole lot is encased. That will make me happier as this is going to be under a suspended timber floor with probably no access.

 

Anyone else come across this sort of thing?

 

Edited June 7, 2019 by Carrerahill

[Russell griffiths]

They used to come in one size fits all, now you can get a hundred different sizes. 

 

I have used one one that has an inner flange that sits on top of your cast pipe and then the plastic slides in and also touches the lip, I would think you have one slightly to big or your cast is a bit small. 

[Russell griffiths]

That link does also not look right, you did ask for cast to plastic, and not just a cast coupling. 

[Russell griffiths]

like this one. 

[Carrerahill]

23 minutes ago, Russell griffiths said:

They used to come in one size fits all, now you can get a hundred different sizes. 

 

I have used one one that has an inner flange that sits on top of your cast pipe and then the plastic slides in and also touches the lip, I would think you have one slightly to big or your cast is a bit small. 

Yes that is the one I used in the end with the seal removed, it looked like this:

 

https://www.screwfix.com/p/mcalpine-dc1-bl-drain-connector-black-110mm/4255V?kpid=4255V&ds_kid=92700030947645247&ds_rl=1241687&ds_rl=1245250&ds_rl=1249404&ds_rl=1245250&ds_rl=1249481&ds_rl=1249799&gclid=CjwKEAjwlujnBRDl2teOp_veulQSJAC5bHgtNgsJa_j73r8AJsmdBOfcqXuYEuyfUda-fOod_FQsAxoCQXzw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

 

The description does say 110mm cast - that is then correct for a true 4" cast iron pipe, but the pipe here is 4inch OD - I wonder, did they mess with imperial pipe sizes? Was it mean to be more like 100mm or something?

 

Anyway, it is in and working now, the 40mm should arrive today and I can connect into a boss I fitted for the basin and bath.

 

 

 

 

[Carrerahill]

30 minutes ago, Russell griffiths said:

That link does also not look right, you did ask for cast to plastic, and not just a cast coupling. 

Yeah, I told the merchant exactly what I needed to do. Whatever way we look at it, it was wrong. Not quite sure, if I could pick the brain of a older plumber I am sure we could fathom it out, the B&Q guy is older and was a plumber, he did comment the pipe I brought in had an oddly thick wall to it.  I need to return to the merchants today, to get some 45° elbows and return the Timesaver so I will see if there are any older looking plumbers about and ask them. 

Edited June 7, 2019 by Carrerahill

[Carrerahill]

27 minutes ago, Russell griffiths said:

like this one. 

I tried those too - the one I tried was basically a parallel sided thing (that one is to go over the OD of clay which is much bigger than 4inch) it was a good fit on the 110mm PVC but had an even bigger gap around the cast - if the Timesaver was going to wrinkle up this boy was going to look like a bloomin' Accordion! 

Edited June 7, 2019 by Carrerahill

[Russell griffiths]

It shouldn’t be parallel sided it should have a step in it. 

4inch cast is a lot smaller than 110mm plastic. 

[Onoff]

This says good for 100mm on the smaller diameter:

 

https://www.plumbers-mate-sales.co.uk/flexible-rubber-soil-pipe-connector-cast-iron-to-plastic---54000460-889-p.asp

[Onoff]

This is coming up out of the ground?

 

 

Won't one of these just push down into the cast "female"? Then have normal 110mm plastic out of the top?

 

Edited June 7, 2019 by Onoff

[Carrerahill]

54 minutes ago, Russell griffiths said:

It shouldn’t be parallel sided it should have a step in it. 

4inch cast is a lot smaller than 110mm plastic. 

Well in my case the cast is 101.6mm and the PVC is obviously 110mm. They didn't have anything (and they had tonnes) that would fit nicely around my cast pipe - but then again, I am led to believe it is an odd size... 

[Onoff]

17 minutes ago, Carrerahill said:

Well in my case the cast is 101.6mm and the PVC is obviously 110mm. They didn't have anything (and they had tonnes) that would fit nicely around my cast pipe - but then again, I am led to believe it is an odd size... 

 

Can you not go inside the cast iron then?

[Carrerahill]

27 minutes ago, Onoff said:

This is coming up out of the ground?

 

Won't one of these just push down into the cast "female"? Then have normal 110mm plastic out of the top?

 

Yes that is is the original cast pipe coming out the ground (now inside my house as it's in the extension).

 

As for the Screwfix part you link to: Yes and no, see my original post I go through it all but the spigot with seal is too big on those, so as a component it is not the right one for the job. However, it all works now and that is what I used with the rubber seal removed so the plastic is just sleeved into the cast pipe with a big bead of quality sealant around the conical section which is now sitting on the cut face of the cast. I also smeared a little on the face of the spigot just too help gum it all up - in reality there should never be water trying to go up the joint, but if there was a blockage then it could be that this section ends up sitting full of water so I needed to know I had a good seal.

 

All my 40mm stuff just arrived so I can now go and do the rest of the bathroom wastes.

 

 

2 mins and I will post an image.

Edited June 7, 2019 by Carrerahill

[Carrerahill]

OK this is what I have done. You will recognise the connector from above links and images, mine is just modded a bit!

 

So the spigot connector:

 

 

Then removed seal from the spigot connector as this was NEVER in a million years going to fit:

 

The finished product, I will leave it till tonight like this then make good the hole in the wall after I am happy it is leak free. The foil tape is where the 40mm waste will connect in in which will serve the bathrooms off to the left.

Edited June 7, 2019 by Carrerahill

[Russell griffiths]

Change it the subject, is there a reason you haven’t got joist hangers on those joist ends. 

[Mr Punter]

I see what you you mean @Russell griffiths, they look a bit like truss clips.

[Carrerahill]

1 hour ago, Russell griffiths said:

Change it the subject, is there a reason you haven’t got joist hangers on those joist ends. 

Yeah I did try to use them actually, but in the end I just built it to the BC approved spec:

 

"47x195 C16 timber runner bolted to wall at 600mm centres with RAWL M16 R-KF2 stud fixings. Rafters fixed to runner with pair of Expament framing anchors with all holes nailed."

 

I ended up using Simpson A35 framing anchors. 

 

The rafters are also skew nailed with 90mm SS nails top and sides. 

 

I was actually going to get hangers but none of the local merchants sold the sloped hanger that I would have needed and most of then had never heard of them, is this a regional thing?

 

The roof is not actually finished as there is to be more framework to the underside and as part of it I am going to add some structure to support the rafters a little more. 

Edited June 7, 2019 by Carrerahill