LnP

@Iceverge thanks for your fantastic comments. There’s a lot to think about here. I especially like your suggestion about the roof lights over the staircase. I’m going to get the red pen out and do some sketching.

Interesting that you're going for day rates rather than priced work. Am I right in thinking that's unusual? What do you think are the pros and cons of day rates vs priced work?

Good comments thanks @CharlieKLP. I'll give some thought to how we might integrate things on the front elevation a bit better. I don't know that we'd give the style a label, but three of the late Victorian houses on the street have been described as Arts and Crafts. You could have a long discussion about what makes a style Arts and Crafts. Those three houses all have hanging tiles, but putting a few hanging tiles on a house can easily end up looking mid twentieth century "semi-detached suburban". Arts and Crafts half timbered can end up looking more like Mock Tudor ?. We're planning brick exterior and stone mullions on the bays. The brick will have some kind of detailing, but we haven't decided what yet. The rear elevation will be timber clad as a cost saving measure to avoid an additional steel beam to support bricks over the doors out of the kitchen/dining room. When you talk about the walls on the end of the house, are you talking about the gable ends? What are the challenges with that? The copings on the parapet verges would be the same reconstituted stone as the mullions in the windows on the bays.

This is where we're up to with the design of our new build timber frame house. I'd be very invested in comments. The views are to the rear overlooking a canal. The rear faces north. We like natural light. All the landscaping shown on the site plan is existing information from the topo. Apart from the outbuilding in the NW corner, it's all open to being changed. Compared to what's shown, we will move the house to the west by about 2 m and move the garage further into the SE corner. We'll also rotate the garage about 20' clockwise to make it easier to drive in. I've attached a street scene from a planning application from another house on the street. Our planning consultant tells us we have a reasonably free hand with the look of the house. The street scene is from our side of the road which is late Victorian, but the other side of is 1970s and a couple of the houses have been renovated with very modern designs. We're inclined towards something which is in keeping with the other Victorian houses. As well as layout functionality comments, I'm interested in ways to make the design more cost effective. This is the first time we've faced a project like this, so we're very open to comments, criticism etc, in fact hoping to learn from BH wisdom! Floor Plans 5.pdf 3D.pdf Street Scene.pdf

The following data on building materials price increases between October 2020 and October 2021 are from the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy. Imported sawn or planed wood - 69.6% Plywood - 49.8% Fabricated structural steel - 16.9% Ready mixed concrete - 7.0% Blocks, bricks, tiles and flagstones - 6.4% What influence do you think this might have on the choice of building system for an inexperienced self-managing self-builder? Link to BEIS

Thanks. How often did you need to change the batteries on the GoPro?

I like the time lapse video. How do you make one? Do you need a special camera and video editing software? What do you recommend?

No, just fitting of roof sarking and membrane, though I guess that's "wind and watertight" isn't it?. And it doesn't include windows and external doors.

The free design service from Fleming was worth a punt and if their price had been say 10% over the prices on their website, I think we would have gone for it. Anyway now we'll pursue getting other TF companies to quote for a design we're getting finalised.

The £16,000 erection option doesn't include offloading the kit from the delivery vehicle or crane hire for the erection, which I hadn't expected. I don't know how much that will cost. It also doesn't include travel expenses for the erection crew. 4 people for 2 weeks could be another £5,000? It doesn't include scaffolding, site welfare facilities etc but I expected this so have them already in my budget.

That's right, and that's for their basic level of insulation - 120mm of factory installed PIR in 140mm studs giving 0.17 W/m2 degC. You can add another 50mm of PIR which they will supply for £2000 materials only, giving 0.11 W/m2 degC. The client has to fit it. I've been budgeting for the superstructure to be 25% of the total build cost, so if the TF kit price is a reflection of the market for everything else, the build cost will be ~£2,400 /m2. I was hoping for more like £1,600 - £1,800. I'm optimistic though that I can improve on the Fleming price.

We just had a quotation from Fleming for a timber frame kit. It's for a 236 m2, dual pitch roof, gable ends and one dormer. We specified attic trusses for future development of the roof space but a cold roof, i.e. insulation stops at the first floor ceiling. It's a simple rectangular footprint apart from a 3.5 x 7 m single storey extension for a family room. There are two steel beams, but several first floor walls are positioned over ground floor ones. Fleming offer two kit specification levels, structure only and full specification. With the structure only kit, the panels are shipped uninsulated and fibreglass insulation supplied on a materials only basis. With the full spec kit, the panels are factory fitted with PIR and it includes internal doors. Erection is about £16,000 extra in both cases. There are various other extras - posi joists, extra insulation etc. Fleming have a calculator on their website which uses July 2021 prices and for 236 m2 gives estimates of £55,224 and £80,004 respectively for the two levels, undoubtedly for a simple box shape structure. The quotes have come back at £85,573 and £121,551, i.e. more than 50% higher. The website calculator prices were similar to what I had estimated from data I'd collected from various sources so I was very surprised by the Fleming quotation, despite that our design is slightly more complex. I'd heard that materials prices, especially timber had levelled off or even eased a little in recent months. We used their free design service, so another reason for the unexpectedly high price might be that they might have got the idea they were in a single supplier situation. For copyright reasons we won't shop their design around for alternative bids, but we have in parallel been working with another designer so that we can get competitive bids from other suppliers - Potton, MBC etc. We might consider brick and block. I thought I'd share this experience and am interested in case anybody else is actively getting timber frame quotes at the moment.

That sounds like good advice. What information do you need to provide to a QS for them to do the cost plan? Would it be better to get the QS cost plan before you go for PP, otherwise if you have to downsize to meet the budget, you might have to resubmit?

Hi Deejay_2, I’m wondering if you nights be stirring up a bit of a rats’ nest by asking HMRC for a written response. It’s possible that they don’t have a written policy on this, but that if they have to write one it might not be the one we want. Given that the VAT accountants have advised that HMRC’s practice is to allow the reclaim in these cases, I’m wondering if it might be best just to rely on precedent in the unlikely event of a challenge. That might be a question to put to one of the VAT reclaim accountants.

Hi @Deejay_2, I spoke to Andrew Jones, the person Joe90 recommended. I also spoke to Claim it Back, www.vatclaim.co.uk 01427 839333, who advertise in the back of Build It magazine. I also spoke to somebody at a Build It show at Bicester. They were all confident I didn’t have a problem. I read your post following your conversation with HMRC. it’s a pity you didn’t get clearer guidance.

Hi @Deejay_2 I never followed up with a call to HMRC. But, in addition to the two I mentioned above, I spoke to another accountant who specialises in VAT reclaim and she confirmed that what we are doing (refurbishing an outbuilding to live in during demolition and rebuild of the main house), will not jeopardise the VAT reclaim on the new build of the main house. Your situation is slightly different, so I'd recommend talking to some accountants. I suppose that if you did the project in a single phase you'd get the VAT back on the garage. Splitting it in two might mean you'll only get the VAT back on the house. I'll be interested to hear how you get on.

Thanks joe90. He was one of the accountants I spoke to, and the long quote is out of his booklet ?

Good idea. Here's a fairly lengthy quote from the sales brochure of one of the accountants I talked to. It's a reminder to be vigilant about the reclaim process and keep good records including photos, but I think it's further confirmation that my new build will be zero rated, despite us living temporarily in the outbuilding. "HMRC will go to great lengths in an attempt to reduce or totally refuse your reclaim and it’s down to you or us to evidence to them that we are correct. This specific claim comes to mind because it has only just been resolved so it’s fresh in my memory. It has taken a whole year almost to the day to get resolved, but yes, the client did get paid. The client built a new house, an annexe, and some barns. Neither the annexe nor the barns qualify for VAT reclaim or zero rating. The client built the annexe first and moved into the annexe to live while the main house was being built. Then moved into the main house and then completed the project by building the barns. We presented a completion certificate to HMRC with the reclaim that was 7 days after the date on the completion certificate, so that’s 10 weeks inside the 3 month deadline for submitting the reclaim. HMRC investigated the claim, valued around £40k and advised they had evidence that the house had been lived in for many years longer than the date we had put as a moving in date and therefore HMRC felt this claim could and should have been submitted before the time it was. HMRC had viewed the voting register and the council tax banding list and as the family were living in the annexe, it proved they were living on site but not in the house. By total chance the client found a photo showing them at the annexe with no house in the background and took another photo of the site as it stands today, showing the house was in the background now, evidencing that the annexe was built first. We now thought and hoped this would allow the claim to proceed, it did not. HMRC came back with a claim that the reclaim included material for the annexe and the barns, neither of which qualify for VAT exemption or refund, which they did not. HMRC offered an olive branch by requesting the client make an offer of a reduction of the claim value and begrudgingly the client offered £2k. HMRC then hired a drone to take photos of the site from above and highlighted the square meterage of the barn and annexe against the square meterage of the house in order to try and get the client to increase the reduction further. This was now 9 months and 6 letters from HMRC into the claim, the client advised they would accept a £5k discount, HMRC accepted this. A year to the day of submission I had a discussion with a senior officer at HMRC and voiced my displeasure at their tactics in this reclaim and that person went away and looked at the claim. Three days later the claim was refunded in full, with no discount taken from the original submission. That was a result."

I've spoken to two accountants who specialise in VAT reclaim for new builds. One of them advertises in the back of Build It magazine, and the other was referred to me by a well known timber frame company. Neither of them could see any reason why living on site in an existing outbuilding during the demolition of an existing dwelling and its replacement, would jeopardise the zero rating of the new build. Both of them advised that the requirement that "any pre-existing building is demolished completely to ground level" is intended to mean that you can't use parts of the existing building in the new build. It does not mean that every building on the site has to be demolished. As I mentioned previously, if that were the case, if there was an existing detached garage on the site, you'd have to demolish it. It seems unlikely that that's what HMRC mean.

Interesting. I wonder if you wouldn’t mind sharing some more information about who you looked at, what you found and who you chose. Regarding the Potton show houses, I agree they are not as good as they should be. We were there recently and noticed things like render falling off, poor exterior paintwork, noisy MVHR. They’re still on my list though. These are aspects of the build which they won’t be supplying, but it’s definitely a mark against them.

Hi Stu-UK, if you're still on here, I'd be interested in your more detailed review and your Potton experience. Thanks

I'm not defending Potton, but don't really understand the criticisms about fake beams and designs looking dated. It's the client's choice what to clad the frame in, and if mock Tudor's your thing, then that's what you can have. But if you want it for example brick clad, I think you'll get a house which most people wouldn't even know was timber frame. Regarding floor plan and elevations, you can have pretty much whatever you want. It's an interesting question though, how to choose a timber frame company. It's very hard to compare prices.

Somebody already posted a question on the forum, where they planned to build a new house but retain an existing garage. They were asking if the new build would qualify for zero rated VAT. HMRC forum question HMRC did not give a direct answer, but provided links to guidance. One of the links give the conditions which have to be met for the building to qualify. One of them is: it’s built from scratch, and, before construction starts, any pre-existing building is demolished completely to ground level (cellars, basements and the ‘slab’ at ground level may be retained) I think it's this text which is causing confusion. It doesn't say "every pre-existing building", and I think it means any part of the pre-existing building you're replacing. I haven't found anything in the guidance about living on site during the build. So it's looking to me so far that we're OK to do what we want to do, but I'm going to look into getting professional advice. Can anybody recommend a self build VAT specialist? Thanks

Thanks for the HMRC forum suggestion. The outbuilding is in poor shape with a leaky roof so we will anyway need to fix that. As well as living in it temporarily, we plan to store personal effects in it during the build. There's nothing in the form VAT431NB which I can see which would bring the outbuilding into consideration. HMRC don't seem to be asking for any information about out buildings. Interestingly, the person who brought this to my attention also suggested putting a caravan on site which we could claim to be sleeping in.

That's an interesting idea. I think the planners might object though. But I'll discuss it with my planning consultant.