zoothorn

That's a very fair post. Can I also just add, that when Peter says "I explained to you about balancing" it was a post over 10 days ago, that I might well have read in fact (not missed at all) but I cannot ping back & remember what was said, if this was the 1st time I ever heard the info. Saying now "I told you 10 days ago" isn't fair. What is fair is to just ask, can you remind me of.. but I'm met with a slew of almost agressive comments 'you dont read'.. 'we said'.. 'yoiu refuse to listen'.. etc. Its totally unwarranted. I do read, listen. It should be clear by now that my idea of balancing, is simply all rads should be equal temp, basically this. I still do not know if this is true or not. Until I know this (people are more inclined to ridicule than help by answering this simplest of Q's, watching me flounder knowing I haven't grasped something right in front of me perhaps) I cannot understand, or agree, with the stated "your rads are not balanced" as it seems completely counterintuitive. Is it so bad to ask just to go back to sq1, and ask this? it is either a yes or no.

Hi Peter, they are both simple standard CH double rads, water filled by the cylinder. Fins between the two layers. I think called fins. Look morelike gills. All house ones the same, bathroom different/ towel rail type.

I'm only trying to understand it PeterW. I do want help, but if I cannot make any sense at all of you stating my rads are unblanced, am I just meant to lie & say "ok I understand" ? (or be truthful & say with respect I do not understand until the reason given). There -has- to be a plausible reason how you & joe can say my rads aren't balanced, when they all feel temp the same + same time they come on. All I'm currently asking is if you can explain, even if repeating (I missed the reply with BS4592 in.. replies are missed/ Ive said this before, unless you refresh the page continually all day). Can you just answer this?

@joe90 the only thing that might be reason for not understanding you (& if others agreeing with you, I have to try & understand how you can come to this collective pov) is if the word "balanced" is different to you and me here. To me, 8x balanced rads mean all equal in temp & equal in when they come on.. regardless of two factors: their size, & the room they're in. If though in order to achieve balance in my house here with such differing room characteristics, the rads need to be "tuned" to their specific rooms in order to achieve a balance in the final room temp one to the next.. then I can understand you saying my rads are unbalanced. Is this what you mean? that my view of 'balanced rads' might have been far too limited-?

Joe, I listen & read every reply but I am not oblidged to agree with everything that's said though (noone is who creates a thread: the replies are opinions, to which the OP has to decide between, upon, to take up one maybe not another, to discuss, many things) not just blindly agreeing with everything. It is absolutely impossible for me to agree if.. you say the rads are imbalanced, after my findings/ when I say on here I find all rads to be similar, which cannot suggest any possible thing other than that they are adequately balanced. But you just outright refute this, saying the very opposite. Wtf??

I would if I could see the logic of doing so. The suggestion is that the surveyor didn't do his job right, & that the rads are inblanced; but I can only see proof that he did the job right, and the rads are balanced (& its just this house aspects undermining the CH). If I could see any evidence of what is being suggested, Id measure xyz no problem. The thing is noone understands how cold this house is, how a wet small valley 8m from sea out here can trap cold like Ive never known even in NZ, & because being ex builders and vg amateur builders.. the 1st thing you'd not have or put up with, is insufficient insulation. That's all that's wrong here. Why tho this can be said in my new top room, with vg results yds below.. is the only viable question, to me.

Peter that's hugely kind of you, i wouldn't want you to drive to west wales tho and back. If i can measure things here i will. I fully agree its not designed correctly: its hopelessly complicated, 7 month ongoing noise prob, software issues, error codes, parts replaced so 8 x mfr visits, & yet still an issue remaining.. if not two. Absolutely agree. And agree its not fot fir purpiose solely on it coming active overnight on & off continually over even one night. If it was determined, within the installer instructions, to place the indoor unit not inside at all, but outside along with the fan unit.. then & only then could it be fot fir pirpis, for even an average house. No way as it is. I cannot agree tho its not installed correctly (nothing suggests so, not now the leak finally fixed, the only thing Vaillant themselves noted incorrectly installed). I cannot agree the rad in the workshop isn't correctly sized if the room is warm, and so: I cannot agree that the room's rad above over 2x its size, is undersized as is suggested. I cannot agree its imbalanced if all rads come on simultaneously, and just from feeling them, all seem fine/ equally as hot. I know you have huge more knowledge and experience, but with respect we must agree to disagree on these 4 points. Can i use the thermometre directly on the rad? Id need to tape it on side or something. Or am i being asked to go into system & check current flow temp at certain times? I think i remember how now, a screen on the dreaded indoor box unit you can go into.. tho more for installers than customers afaict. thanks alot, zh

I don't have a means of measuring the water temp within the rads. Im asked for the rad temps, I cannot answer/ I can only say what temp I have put into the system, its flow temp 55*. Answering each rad temp, each room dims, glazing size, type of construction, make & model of ASHP.. that's a huge ammount of info that'll take me a day. And I'm not sure for what purpose this info could be if: What I need to establish is only 3 things: 1) overnight noise (Vaillant's perogative to fix). 2) why all rads 'spring' into life at 6.50am, the next day 7.55am (Vaillant's perogative IF it is an issue: outside sensor- do you agree this seems the most plausible thing? or another software issue maybe? 3 software issues so far.. so this is also plausible surely). So if these are mfr issues (1 certainly is, 2 seems highly plausible it is) then putting these two issues aside. Leaving only: 3) why the new top room, with a rad twice size of new room's below, isn't nearly as warm. The only main Q. This cannot have anything to do with *a rad imbalance if all perform simultaneously re. heat, & come on & go off simultaneously (for all intents & purposes then proof they're sufficiently balanced). And it cannot have anything to do with **the rad being undersized if its -over- 2x size of rad in room below which is heating this room very well, with both rooms having similar size & build. But nobody seems to agree on these * & ** (to me clear as day) findings.

Hi Dpm. No because its the only room that's warm.

No this is true, my 55* is solely based upon what me (& Vaillant chap on phone telling me how) set the flow temp to on the digi controller, upped it from 50*. I'm happy all rads are hot enough, and working one to the next consistantly whether 53* or 57*. That is all I am confident in tho.

Unless the system enables you to put it up to 55* though: mine feel 'very hot' ish, much like a typical boiler rad.. if not super hot these sometimes run at like maybe 58 or even 60 (?). A very good temp I was thinking today 5pm, ass on rad, but go 1m away & you'd not know it was even on.

No, Im defo saying the room's too cold for the rad! they physically cannot be bigger in: kitchen, bathroom, bedroom, spare bedroom, both the main room's rads cannot be any bigger too. New bedroom I think has the biggest rad in wales in tbh. The only room possible to get a bigger rad in, bc I asked them not to put in a medium they wanted to (bc I had the intuition it'd be too hot in there.. & I was right) was the toastiest room, the new workshop, with its small rad in. Its impossible to explain this house I think, both the layout, the 4x different builds cobbled together, especially the huge difference in insulative aspects one room to the next. Almost as impossible as coming down 2p with your thermometre reading 9*C Peter! It'll be spring soon & my plums can come down again.

Yes, but if one room -does- get toasty unlike the remaining cold ones, and all the rads are equally as hot and equally as on timewise.. then they're not unbalanced, its just the rooms that are "unbalanced". You can't expect a rad to 'know' the characteristics of the room & change its performance accordingly, unless of course it has a trv (none of mine do). I'd think you could say purely by the rads coming on similar timewise, and similar heat, that they are sufficiently balanced. There's nothing suggesting a radiator imbalance, I'm rather bewildered by the suggestion tbh.

Well I can only say 'to what Ive set them to go to' 55*. So actually 5* above usual for this system I believe.

The rooms aren't heating up, because they're too cold to do so. Its not the fault of the CH system (once it's decided to actually come on 90mins after I told it to). It has no possible chance of getting my bathroom above 13.3*C on a cold day, with the rad on hot most of the day. And if the rad's on at the same time and temp as the others, them afaict it is sufficiently balanced, if not pin-point perfectly, so Im happy with this aspect: in fact its the only thing thast seems to be correct! Imagine plonking a small rad in a single brick small 2mx2mx 2.5m H contruction, snow outside, on clay, tin roof on (the best idea of how my bathroom feels) it wouldn't heat the room, the heat would just go up above the rad & disaapear. Sit on a khazi 1m away from rad & you'd barely notice it was on. If adjacent to it there was another the same, but with insulation, under floor too, on roof.. it'd get the room warm. But the two identical rads aren't unbalanced just bc you measure very different temps in the two rooms tho. You wouldn't curse the CH in the 1st room.. you'd only curse the room.

@PeterW understood. But this exercise is nigh on impossible.. because of the 'delay' of when they actually suddenly give out heat, you just dont know when this point will be day to day even a series of similarly cold days one day 7.40am, next day 8.15am, another day 6.55am. Once I get the noise stopped (if ever do) & determine why inconsistancy in 8am room temp day to day, & get this evened out.. I can fine tune it. But this looks like a long way away: Vaillant I get impression have no idea (just like overnight noise- no idea). In meantime I'm happy enough with the balance, I think, even if not perfect. Thanks.

The rads all do the same it seems, not pumping out heat until suddenly 8am ish. Most times. Sometimes they start earlier consistant with a normal 7 ish am time (why this big inconsistancy, when the outside sensor's job is to regulate & produce a similar heat inside, if irregular heat outside.. is a Q Id surmise only for Vaillant). But I can only tell if new top room isn't warm at 8am one day, better the next, etc.. because you see most of the other rooms you cannot tell any difference the rads being on for hours bc room temp increaces by only 1 or 2* all day! (maybe 3* in main room if lucky). In new rooms, the temp does at least increace by enough -only just in top room tho- to feel a scrap of warmth AM sometimes, average warmth at its very best effort sometimes say 5pm. I can only determine the 'health' of the CH by measuring in the new room.

Sure Peter. All double rads, apart from bathroom towel rail rad (only type could fit in). From cylinder upstairs: 1x medium rad in this spare bedroom 1x huge looong rad in main room below 1x medium rad in old bedroom 1x med rad in main room below 1x huge looong rad in new bedroom 1x small'ish rad in workshop below. Other side of cylinder as it were: 1x towel rad in bathroom 1x small rad in kitchen.

Ok possibly not optimally blanced Peter. But if all I know is the rads are all getting similarly hot, at similar times.. surely balanced enough tho? I can't do the open lockshield thing its a bit beyond me tbh. If I'd found a huge discrepency in one rad to next rad, as my installers are n/a to ask, & assuming Vaillant might say "installers dept".. then Id have no choice but dive into the lockshield tweaking myself. All I need to do is 1) stop overnight noise, 2) determine why my top room rad (& other rads) not getting heat between 6.30-8am, 3) find out why top room is still significantly colder on average than room below. I think both 1 & 2 might be software issues, so then Vaillant's responsibility alone. thanks, zH

Hi Peter.. yup indeed workshop has a rad in. Its half the size of huuuge one upstairs directly above. Yup unbalancing is a very reasonable idea.. but rads both feel similarly hot, at similar times (& next to each other in the 'chain' by just a few metres only too). I'm not sure about order of plumbing, bc the cylinder sits 'between' the kitchen/ bathroom extension, & the rest of house. So the worshop rad seems to be 'last' of house's 8x though. The new bedroom above is next-but-last then. Its not that this 7th rad is underperforming relative to the others, its not, its that (weirdly) the room -must- just have alot of cold entering. Surely the window & french doors, &/or floor then.. if 1) the ceiling is known to be sufficiently insulated, 2) the walls are same both rooms, 3) the 1x old wall is same-size area in both rooms. This I admit is zoot-logic.. but if I do see some evidence of cold-bridging @ french doors-?

Yup get the suggestion ProDave. But the prob must be with the room if new room downstairs, half the rad size, is toasty even with the door opening often, & to outside. I have black mould suggesting cold bridging upstairs @ french doors suggesting one definite cold avenue. But the new top room is getting hot. But not until 4pm. Its tricky to understand why, esp if the CH is extremely complicated, & then if an engineer suggests "yes theres a ras-heat delay until 8am to prevent noise intrision".. I'm left just bewildered. And onto call after call. Again. Fan heaters are the only thing that'll heat my freezing bathroom, & kitchen, bc they fire hot air twds you (rather than within a room evenly).. have whack mine on near constantly tho to use these rooms. So not an ideal test, but I get your point.

So afaict, I'm doubly fkd then! I often find outside temp feels warmer than inside. I'm just 2 months off spring, sort of. Is how I'm thinking now mid jan. Just a case of bearing it out, & maybe ~mid march my plums will drop again: you never know, having a '2nd turn' at this might attract a hoard of welsh crumpet & the cold will all pay off.

Good suggestions eco 7 etc.. I'll look into it. Big sods tho, no room to add in kitchen or bathroom. House is sooo cold bc its an 1830 slate 2ft thick 4-wall shell (inc its 6x5m int concrete floor), in a very wet area, sat on clay. Then 2x 80's cavity brick extentions added-on, without insulation inc floor. Huge voids behind pB (2 bedrooms above) fill with cold loft air. DG windows. Without major wall alteration, I cannot alter this. Actually the orig 4x stone walls can radiate heat just, better than the brick rooms: these are terrible & remain cold even with a decently hot CH rad on, doing what it should/ can do, all day. 200mm loft fluff was added, onto orig orange stuff, above all these 4x brick rooms last year (no difference). I avoid now the 2x bedrooms hurrah, so its just the kitchen & (worst) the bathroom. This is where my plums are often not where they ought to be.

Hi Peter. No tbh I don't.. & I saw your clip of 'balancing' a system including get a gizmo on to the pipes to read the temp at each rad, but alas I don't have such a gizmo. I'm happy rads balanced enough to be getting good heat in last-in-the-line rad (in fact the toastiest room, the workshop) and next-but-last (my new bedroom above). The inconsistancy of this bedroom's room temp day to day, I think maybe a settings thing: an engineer mentioned "8am delay" (lord knows what); or perhaps if the desired temp I left in a 18.5* before it goes off 9pm (so this is temp it aims for 1st thing) compared to 20* or even 22*... then it 'gets up to speed' alot slower, rads go only into '2nd gear' instead of '4th gear'. I don't know. Or ext sensor fault? So, I've emailed Vaillant about this (on end of email demanding the overnight noise, yet still happening, be resolved or I elevate this to a complaint to small claims court. no response). So I have to wait in queue on another call today. Exhausting.

Hi TonyT. [sorry chaps took a time-out walking few days clear my noggin]. I own the house (cheap small stone cttg shell + cold 80's add-ons). CH is on a govt grant thing, foc.