zoothorn

Come on AB.. you'tre opinion I respect the most. Look 4200mm I measure across the horizontal truss beam from pinpoint where it starts, to the notch edge. 4200mm I measure on site one outerv edge of wall >>> across to the other. So tell me how this 4200mm horizontal spans across/ sits on the walls.. & magically gives me additional ceiling height-?

Everyone? no-one has explained it. No-one bar you & tennentslager only understand what I'm suggesting. You can see the truss is wrong just by looking at it & comparing to my drawing (whether or not you don't believe its accurate.. which it is extremely accurate both in shape, the angle, the dims, everything.. to scale.. perfectly.. regardless of whether figures are marked on/ this does not mean the lines are not precise).. you can measure its cross beam to give added strength to my view, you can measure this 20cm too low figure run throughout the build tip to toe!! what more evidence do you need?! but still, just bc my plan is hand drawn, I am wrong & the builder is right. NO NO NO. Proove me so. You can't. look at the vertical bar in the photo.. its too long!! there is to be no slope RHS, but instead ceiling will join at a right angle to the wall here. This is wrong. This does not give me the very design feature a collared roof should give me: additional height.

Ok BigJ if you're right, tell me: why does my cross beam measure 4200mm then bang on the nose (from where the horizontal starts one side >>>>> right across >>>>> to the outside of the notch in the outer frame).. & the width of the walls measures 4200mm too?

If I had a cam phone I'd just snap a few sketches.. as I dont have I can only try & explain. Yes the truss is a unique shape (but not out of this world weird). No the pic of the site truss is not symmetrical, it does follow the unique shape (look at the difference of where the cross beam intersects the outer thick 30* angle.. clearly different both sides, as it should be). If the beam is placed too low.. the additional height is reduced. I think anyone could agree with that. It makes no difference non-symettrical or regular, a collared ceiling or normal.. for the purposes of this eg, boiling it down to the nub like this is uyseful. If the cross beam is raised so its only say 3m across, it'll sit right up silly in the 'A' shape, its 'legs' longer. If this hyperthetical beam happened on my truss.. Id have alot of additional ceiling height. Conversely, if the beam was set right down as low as possible.. my ceiling height is reduced. My beam IS set as low down as possible. This has actually happened. It can be determined this is true, by measuring the length of the cross beam & transferring to the built walls. If the length equals the width of the built walls.. this alone proves I am correct.

Nuts to the blonde. Please stay with me. Half above is correct. But the 2nd half is not.. its THIS which is the very crux!!!! "You are going to walk out through the door from your existing first floor, and you are going to have a wall to your right which will rise from the floor you are standing on. at the top of that wall, you are going to have a slope rising towards you untill it meets the ceiling above your head." Yes. Agreed. "On the other side you will have the same, but the slope will be shorter, because your wall on that side is taller". NO.. NO..NO! here is the issue!! because the cross beam on the truss (the horizontal wood forming the ceiling line) is made 20cm DOWN from where it should be.. I believe.. it relegates the slope this side, it takes it out, meaning the ceiling is lower, it means I bang my head.. & bc the WHOLE extention has been made relative to this line.. I believe now.. it means the floor below is 20cm lower.. it means the balcony outside is 20cm lower.. it means the whole room below it is 20cm lower.. it is the reason for ALL the confusion & H issues keeping me awake & this thread to expand.. Now, this beam 20cm too low is what I am adamant/ totally convinced/ I am 100% certain of (I have the evidence.. by just measuring across it & transferring this figure to the build: its the same 4200mm measured from one outer side wall >>>>> right across to the other). I also wonder if it can be called a collared ceiling if its a right angle one side too, instead of the typical two slopes.

You need to imagine the truss in the photo the other way round (too heavy to move).. perhaps that helps me explain my predicament here. Can anyone help?

FANTASTIC! you are on board with me. Please just stay & help me out. I promise it won't take long. I cannot agree the raised tie will give me any added height at all. I will hopefully show you why I think this. When I physically measure across this horizontal cross beam from the notch > to the junction of the cross beam & the big outer 30* angled wood section.. I get 4200mm. Now, this is the exact dim of the outer wall > across > to outer wall. So, this implies the RHS of the cross beam will sit upon the wall top at this juncture, not be raised above it/ no small ceiling corner slope. No gain in height. It doesn't tally with the plan, which has this ceiling line across (the cross beam line) raised above this juncture, raised above the top of the wall. Can you say whether you understand to what I am referring to?

BigJ- please help me out here. Can we just forget the terminology.. I have an urgency to this Q. I need to establish if this roof is as I've specified, or not. Can you see the two angled ceiling sections, in the upper room, at the sides in my drawing above? 30* angles. One is longer than other. One is above the door facing us (@ its top LHS). The other is above the 1100mm window (@ its top RHS). Please can you say if you know what I'm referring to?

Jamie, a collared ceiling is shown. Above the top room door facing us. You cannot say this is not there purely by using the excuse 'nothing is precise'. Its shown, its drawn, you can see it, its there. Above the 1100mm window on other side.. is the other angled ceiling section: smaller. Can you see these two angled ceiling lines?

What just for you to snipe at me for this relentless H mistake as somehow being my fault.. or actually try & help with the collared connundrum I have (which I now believe tho happy to be proved wrong to be the very cause of ALL the height issues I've had so far from day 1)..

My plan shows all lines, to scale, very precisely. Plan: Top room ceiling: there are two slopes either side. LHS one's bigger cos wall below's shorter. The collared roof plan. Build (but roof yet on): There's one slope only. Why? because in my opinion -& I'm trying desperately to explain, & by god if someone might understand.. let alone agree- the cross beam's 20cm lower than it should be, & sits upon the wall RHS/ no ceiling slope. So I miss out on 20cm H. So the connecting door & frame between the room upstairs.. is buggered/ too low one side vs the existing other. I spent months on this!! so you'll bang your head on the new connecting door frame & have to DUCK to enter from master bedroom. The new ceiling is 1860mm above the floor of the master bedroom, IF this roof is put on. If this damn cross beam was up 20cm.. this figure would be 2060mm.. perfect. I think he just forgot the extra slope bit RHS.. & the whole extention's 20+cm down as a result, scratched his head & just assumed it zoot's plan's mistake (like you do- wrongly) & cracked on regardless "so what if its all 20cm down" (which chimes with his "all fine" attitude) until I saw him friday for 1st time looking concerned when we went critically-measuring the connecting door & finding only 3cm to spare when it should be 23cm. Concerned face on then. All I'm doing is asking if I'm wrong. I'm happy to be proved wrong & the collared ceiling will happen.. but I cannot see it being anything other than a normal ceiling until proved otherwise, devoid of its collared-roof design. Please help me out here, not just snipe at me- thanks.

hi BigJ- ok I understand they are raised tie trusses. My plan clearly shows what the design is to give extra headroom, I have discussed with my builder this design/ we agreed. Ok so I expect 20cm+ onto what I measure my wall heights to be. Ok on -LHS side- this is true, because of the nature of the shorter wall realtive to the RHS wall. The collar idea works here. But not on the RHS side. This is my point chaps. If you look on my plan, the top room walls are different heights. So, simply LHS "ceiling slope to give me extra headroom" is longer than RHS one. But in actuality I do not seem to have -any- "ceiling slope" RHS side at all from measuring it, which means.. the RHS wall height = the ceiling height. It shouldn't be. I should have +20cm here & +40cm on the LHS because wall's lower. The plan concurrs with this precisely. I went onto to argue, can this be called a collared roof then? This was my minor point: IE at what stage does a normal roof with a cross beam become a collared roof with a cross beam? I wasn't asking "what is a collared roof" from a totally naiive pov, having discussed the design many times over last 6 months with my builder! This missing 20cm.. is close enough to the mystery +350mm the whole thing's been made lower into the ground, for me to -finally- concusively know the reason [20cm of 35cm so the whole ammount is still not accounted for tho, irritatingly]. Can anyone see what I mean?

Ok I will cross this bridge later/ will think of chipboard, but I'm much more likely to go 22 screed (if I can). Last job. Upper room walls: LHS its 2100mm, RHS side (window) 2300mm. Sorry I didn't know you replied re. my truss. But in the clip from declan52, both distinguishing eg's normal/ collared have a cross beam. You can't call the normal ceiling 'collared' just bc it has a cross beam, so something else has to determine what a collared ceiling is (if i can, I might have the argument I need @ my builder 'it will not be a collared ceiling as we discussed & as on the plan'). My trusses look like the very eg, showing what a 'normal' roof's trusses are like.. the same profile. Would you agree?

I'm not sure this will be treated as a garage.. not quite on board there. When I spoke to my BCO 6 months ago asking if I can go as low as 2m H (yes) he asked what room for & I umm'd & eerr'd said diy room/ workshop.. he replied "make sure it has insulation in walls". He seemed only to stipulate the walls not floor -I will check of course, as will my builder monday if floor needs any/ what min if so. Wood on floor tho is a fire risk, if I'm using friction/ routers Peter is my thinking. I'm very surprised its allowed at all tbh. Could you have a look at my roof trusses/ this pressing issue? tbh the H of lower room is fixed & last job to fit xyz on slab: right now I have a sudden panic on as its just dawned on me today (now chaps dug trusses out I can see clearly) they're possibly simply not correct, & the whole ~300mm bizarre H issue I can -at last- see is due to the placement of the truss cross member. Thanks- zoot.

Does the slab include whatever is to be inserted for insulation & screed? if so I cannot answer yet. As it is.. its 2150mm.

Here are the trusses. Now my suspicion is, that The LHS cross beam in pic, goes directly on the window side wall ~(rhs on plan) at right angles. The wall here is higher than other side by approx 200mm.. the plan shows this offset. The RHS with the notch cut, will have a short shallow slope/ angle of ceiling (like a collared ceiling inherrantly has, both sides) inside the room bang next to knock-thru door. Your opinions please on whether my trusses are A) "collared"? & B) whether correct or not in your opinion, to my plan?

Hi newhome- low room a workshop, I will not have heating in it. Its more important I gain 2" H because of the whole ongoing H fiasco, than putting any insulation in the floor of lower room at all (if I am able to go without it, under B Regs for workshops of course).

Okn good- that's helpful. So the last big stress.. is whether I have collared roof trusses, or not. And whether if I only have drawing "evidence" rather than any 'collared' word written (tho it was fundamental in the design discussions I had with my builder) of a collared roof.. whether this is evidence enough for me to argue the roof is simply not the design on the plan. If one side of a single cross member of the truss, is in contact with/ attatches to the wall below.. rather than both rafters attatching to the wall: can this still be considered a collared roof in some way? If my cross member was in the position it should be, the mystery of the +350mm is accounted for. The whole design has been shifted down -relative- to this cross member line, the ceiling line.. bc its approx 300mm too far down (& also not a collared roof.. I would suggest).

Hi Declan. Callers.. well this doesn't seem to mean anything then. If you look at my plan, its got a collared roof. Thanks for the info/ clip, which coincides with (I hope you might agree) my plan in terms of the cross member up 1/3rd of the roof H. What I have in front of me, are a number of trusses.. which look more akin to the standard roof in the cross-section drawing in your clip (twds last 1min).. not collared types. But how to distinguish a collared truss? its just a Q of where the cross-member is. For eg, if its up 1ft from the standard roof, giving a wee bit of extra H in room only.. is this deemed a collared roof?? its not such an easy Q.. it could be argued. As you can see in my cross section "fag packet" (still lingers..) drawing, Ive put the cross member @ 1/3rd point (or extremely close to this line). Its pretty accurate, in fact all the dims/ lines on this drawing are accurate. This correlates very well with the clip's cross sectional drawing.. I hope you might agree. If you do agree, then these trusses I've got here although on one side -do- have a small area of "angled ceiling" (as all collared roof's will have by their very nature/ the point of why design chosen) on the opposite side.. they do not: here the cross members meet the wall: there is -no- angled ceiling section on this side. Now whether this means it IS a collared roof or NOT I pass for opinion here from you guys. I don't think its an excuse enough to not have these trusses as I think they should be, that its complicated bc one side of roof is shorter than t'other: Id think still a pretty simple roof compared to many my builder's done perhaps not being symmetrical too. I now think they are wrong.

Anyone know what "Roof Callers" might be on my estimate? callers close enough to collars for me to quiz if s'thing's been left off. Thanks.

Hi Joe- ok I'm reassured about the surface.. but the glue had only 2 hrs before the rain came in 4pm y'day, & its been pretty heavy since. Ive got the whole upstairs exposed. I just bought huge FO tarp & I'll mop up what collecting on the surface.. its just bad luck weatherwise, but the stress remains then until its weatherproofed.

Hi Peter- ok thanks but I bet yours didn't have gaps between with water getting down/ a helluva lot is pouring into the btm room.. no prob on floor below.. but surely the edges are fallible if gaps?

So, the reason we dug down 350mm.. was to squeeze the whole thing in going with a different plan to the design I did, & we discussed (IE it having a collared ceiling as the solution to get both the 2m + 2.35m rooms into).. because it was cheaper most likely, & just not tell me. Or, the truss cross beams -needed- to be at this position/ a collared ceiling not possible, due to structural rigidity. My guess its just cheaper/ cost. On the quote/ estimate, it just says Timber Frame structure & Roof (plus this weird "Roof Callers" @ £105 down the list I can't find on google). No mention of collared ceiling of course. There was no way I was to know it wouldn't be made like so tho, after many definitive discussions on having it inherrant to the design, & my clearly putting it on the plan. Just measuring up transferring the new top room ceiling H into existing bedroom.. its at brow height, 1.8m relative to this floor. So we were talking about the knock thru having a step within it, which will be a solution, but not ideal. I didn't yet know at this juncture 12hrs ago the final new top room H, bc final packers etc not put on, nor the fact the trusses wouldn't give me the extra ~1ft H by way of collared design I still expected there to be. I hope you can appreciate my stress was not irrelevant & OTT, & made worse by the reasons all the floor levels/ room H's different to plan was completely unknown.

Can anyone tell me what Roof Callers are.. its on my estimate from builder.

Also I'm concerned about the weather: the dividing floor is chipboard with grey hard surface on the sections. These I noticed were carefully wrapped up against rain in the pile last few days. Now in, & rain is pooling on them (joined by some german adhesive stuff between) the water is pouring down thru gaps into lower room, & pooling on the floor. It'll be tuesday until roof trusses on. I'm concerned the floor will be ruined. If it is.. its either a wibbly floor.. or a screed ontop to level it (I can't.. no room H top play with even 1cm), or its not stucturally ok if chipboard's compromised.