House redesign to accommodate old people...

[Powerjen]

Don't know why I am nervous about posting this. Have posted in the intro section about having an older 1800's cottage and need to renovate to accommodate elderly parents. Budget is tight and we need to maximise space so we don't kill each other. The house lends itself to an informal split which is why we bought it. We would like some upstairs space to get away from our parents when times are hard. Currently upstairs rooms have limited head room. An architect has done these sketches. The numbered bits are options  which we have asked a QS to cost to see what we can afford to do. We have an old attached garage and workshop at either end of the house we would like to incorporate. House is in a dip so have been told it's too costly to extend out from existing footprint. Are looking at trying to keep things under PD to limit time waiting for the council. Any bright ideas gratefully received. Already got rid of one architect who wasted our time and money with a ridiculous plan 3 times over budget so not a great start.  Still nervous! Thanks

[joe90]

Don’t be nervous, us buildhubbers love giving our opinion on others projects. Working to a Budget is very difficult but again it may be worth getting quotes, if only ball park figures, from the good builder to see which options are doable. I have a bit of a downer on architects as my experience has shown them fail to work to a customers budget or even plans (perhaps I have been unlucky). I am a retired builder and One job I did for a neighbour started badly when they showed me their architects drawings and asked me my opinion, luckily I knew them well so I said “crap”, if it were mine I would do this (quick pencil sketch on a pad), brilliant they said and that's what we built. ?

[Powerjen]

2 minutes ago, joe90 said:

Don’t be nervous, us buildhubbers love giving our opinion on others projects. Working to a Budget is very difficult but again it may be worth getting quotes, if only ball park figures, from the good builder to see which options are doable. I have a bit of a downer on architects as my experience has shown them fail to work to a customers budget or even plans (perhaps I have been unlucky). I am a retired builder and One job I did for a neighbour started badly when they showed me their architects drawings and asked me my opinion, luckily I knew them well so I said “crap”, if it were mine I would do this (quick pencil sketch on a pad), brilliant they said and that's what we built. ?

 

And that is EXACTLY why I am here Joe90! First architect 3 times over budget and bla med us for wanting too much when the whole reason we went to them was because they were the supposed experts and expected them to guide us  

[Ferdinand]

Don't be nervous - it's a constant theme, here. What will we all do in our dotage?

 

My favourite response was Baron Morris of Castle Morris: "I have bought a small manor house in Derbyshire to decline and die in". It was in the village of Foolow. I heard about 8 years ago that his widow was still there, and was the official Duck Warden. My informant was a GP who was the Deputy Duck Warden, who was required - under the instruction of Lady Morris - to let the ducks out from the Duck House onto the village pond in the morning, and return them safely at night. Apparently Lady M is a character; hope she gets a memorial with a duck on it.

 

(Matthew Parris has done something similar more recently.)

 

I believe that the Duck House was bought legitimately, and not paid for out of Parliamentary Expenses.

 

On the positive side, and before I make a serious response, if you *do* kill each other it will solve the budget AND the space problems .

 

Welcome.

Ferdinand

Edited May 29, 2019 by Ferdinand

[the_r_sole]

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Edited September 26, 2019 by the_r_sole

[Ferdinand]

Right, useful questions:

 

1 - Where are you *roughly* (ie county) for weather and Regulations background?

2 -  Is it listed or protected in any other way?

3 - Can you upload a site plan (square drawn on a Google sat-view would do)?

4 - Is there anything serious wrong with it - are we into major floor renovation, new roofs, new windows etc?

5 - Are you in a compulsory rush, or is there a reasonable amount of time?

6 - Is everything level?

7 - Can you give us at least a couple of known dimensions, which would really help? A scale if there is one in the top plan would do, or a room size or two.

 

The more we know, the better we can help you think.

 

The general approach that often finds favour here - subject to constraints - is "fabric first", which prioritises long term easy-to-run-ness / liveability.

 

I'm sure I saw something not dissimilar on Escape to the Country, over my mum's shoulder. So you are not alone. We are in the throes of redoing bathrooms for accessibility ourselves, as it was one of just a few things the previous self-builder got wrong (bath downstairs, shower upstairs).

 

(Update - I see you have already answered some of these in the intro forum - cheers. Trust me to choose the wrong one.)

 

F

 

"A ‘fabric first’ approach to building design involves maximising the performance of the components and materials that make up the building fabric itself, before considering the use of mechanical or electrical building services systems. This can help reduce capital and operational costs, improve energy efficiency and reduce carbon emissions. A fabric first method can also reduce the need for maintenance during the building’s life."

https://www.designingbuildings.co.uk/wiki/Fabric_first

 

Edited May 29, 2019 by Ferdinand

[Powerjen]

1 hour ago, the_r_sole said:

Are you truly renovating for older people? The ground floor looks hard to navigate and move around - I would be thinking about how you move around there to get to the kitchen from the living room you are going through the utility then into a hall way, it's very convoluted - the dining room is also at the opposite end of the house from the kitchen or will the utility be a second kitchen and you'll keep your parents in one side?

Make bigger hallways and more room for manoeuvre

@the_r_sole thank you for having a look at the plans.  My parents are in their late 80s and yes we are doing it because they have to move in. You are right in that the idea is to give my parents an informally self contained area to the right side of the house downstairs and we get the rest, plus whatever we can squeeze out of upstairs. The architect wants the old Master bedroom as a second bedroom for my parents whilst I want it to be the 'Dining Room' instead - he never included it in his original idea, I have asked for it to be costed in.  That way we can close the door by the stairs in the back kitchen and it will could be a self contained flat. The idea is that we could let it as a holiday rental if need be once they're not around. We would then have everything to the left of that door for ourselves.  Hope that makes sense. We want to keep the original front door so if we do have it as a rental then guests can just sit in the front garden and not disturb us out back. We will then have a new front door at the other end where everyone will get diverted to.  Probably should have explained it better.  I would like to knock down the conservatory, currently wooden thin double glazing with plastic roof and extend out so it is flush with the current garage. We have animals so as this will be our back door we were hoping to have a boot room/shower room to decamp into first before we went into the house proper. There is the current bathroom down there but you'd still have to walk through to get to it.  The conservatory is a sun trap and the best bit of the house (or could be) but we don't really want to be walking into it covered in mud when it could be a nice calm space to chill out...

[Powerjen]

1 hour ago, Ferdinand said:

Right, useful questions:

 

1 - Where are you *roughly* (ie county) for weather and Regulations background?

2 -  Is it listed or protected in any other way?

3 - Can you upload a site plan (square drawn on a Google sat-view would do)?

4 - Is there anything serious wrong with it - are we into major floor renovation, new roofs, new windows etc?

5 - Are you in a compulsory rush, or is there a reasonable amount of time?

6 - Is everything level?

7 - Can you give us at least a couple of known dimensions, which would really help? A scale if there is one in the top plan would do, or a room size or two.

 

The more we know, the better we can help you think.

 

The general approach that often finds favour here - subject to constraints - is "fabric first", which prioritises long term easy-to-run-ness / liveability.

 

I'm sure I saw something not dissimilar on Escape to the Country, over my mum's shoulder. So you are not alone. We are in the throes of redoing bathrooms for accessibility ourselves, as it was one of just a few things the previous self-builder got wrong (bath downstairs, shower upstairs).

 

(Update - I see you have already answered some of these in the intro forum - cheers. Trust me to choose the wrong one.)

 

F

 

"A ‘fabric first’ approach to building design involves maximising the performance of the components and materials that make up the building fabric itself, before considering the use of mechanical or electrical building services systems. This can help reduce capital and operational costs, improve energy efficiency and reduce carbon emissions. A fabric first method can also reduce the need for maintenance during the building’s life."

https://www.designingbuildings.co.uk/wiki/Fabric_first

 

Hi Ferdinand

 

Thanks for the questions... here we go...

1)  East Dumfriesshire

2) Nope, not listed or in a special area.

3) see attached - not sure if this is what you mean

4) Mm, define serious... it has been untouched for a few years.  Electrics are old and need checking though consumer unit is modern, there are some plumbing issues, low pressure in a downstairs room and upstairs, roof has no membrane under slates, but joists and sarking look ok so may just leave it and repair dodgy slates. Has thin double glazed sliding sash at front and some blown units out back and some single glazed that need replacing. It really all just needs updating but other than a new boiler, nothing urgent.

5) Parents aren't getting any younger so i would say we are needing to get it done by the end of the year. It was supposed to happen through the summer.

6) Mm downstairs is all level except for a very slight slope where concrete floor meets old floorboards.  Outside the house is on a slight slope right to left and the ground slopes up behind the house and to the left hand side, there is a retaining wall at the back.

 

[Ferdinand]

Serious = something big enough to disrupt your budget, or fundamental things you cannot go back and do later eg if you needed to insulate under the floor.

 

If there is anything known to you, then knowing helps us comment.

 

Ferdinand

Edited May 29, 2019 by Ferdinand

[Powerjen]

@Ferdinand OK, thanks for clarifying. The front elevation roof is Welsh slate but hasn't got membrane under it. I have posted in the roof section here asking if it actually needs reslating with membrane even if it just seems like some slates need replacing. Seems excessive if sarking etc seems OK, but of course, am no expert! Other than that, nothing serious that I know of. 

[Ferdinand]

27 minutes ago, Powerjen said:

@Ferdinand OK, thanks for clarifying. The front elevation roof is Welsh slate but hasn't got membrane under it. I have posted in the roof section here asking if it actually needs reslating with membrane even if it just seems like some slates need replacing. Seems excessive if sarking etc seems OK, but of course, am no expert! Other than that, nothing serious that I know of. 

 

I think mainly depends how extensive repairs are needed. Reroofing the whole thing is going to be well into 5 figures at the very least, and it may be worth you buying your own scaffolding.

 

If you are going to take the roof off, then you will want to insulate it working from the outside for some of your necessary increased performance.

 

The sort of thing that can really derail this sort of project is if you turn out to have dry rot in lots of your joists, or similar.

 

Btw Qs.

 

1 What are your floors downstairs ..solid or suspended?

2 How high are your downstairs doors? Can they be sensibly trimmed by much? Do you plan to keep them?

3 Has tour architect talked you through how to stop it costing a fortune to run, and what your statutory obligations are wrt u-values of walls and floors etc?

 

Personally I would consider a full structural survey .. probably intrusive .. just to establish where my baseline is.

 

F

 

Edited May 29, 2019 by Ferdinand

[Powerjen]

Cor @Ferdinand you are putting me through my paces (in a good way which I thank you for!).

 

1. 3/4 of floors are suspended. Living room and back kitchen are concrete. 

2. Doors vary between 190cm and 2m. Was hoping to keep them, they're nice old panelled ones of varying widths. 

3. Haven't got as far as u values etc but have some understanding of it. We do want to replace all the windows and replace the conservatory if we can. I have the Building Construction Handbook here. We have done a renovation before and did a lot of extra insulation and put in a special electric boiler (never again) . It was a more modern house though. 

 

I am trying not to just look at maximising space for our budget but remember the energy efficiency in it all too. The architect knows we won't to do as much as we can to cut running costs. 

 

Thanks for all your help. 

Edited May 29, 2019 by Powerjen
Wrong figures

[the_r_sole]

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Edited September 26, 2019 by the_r_sole

[Powerjen]

Wow @the_r_sole thank you for taking the time to put all that down.  I absolutely agree with you about making one really area for my parents  - well everyone really, as they will have free reign of the house when they want to but also have their own private space too. I would like the master bedroom on the plan to be our side of the house and the dining room be their second bedroom.  Their end of the house is the oldest bit so all the internal walls are big thick stone rubble ones. Just doing their side of the house as the plan is coming in as 50k and that's just the internal work (via the QS). They have to have two bedrooms so they're not having to share when things get terminal for either one of them and that is probably compromising things design wise.  Originally we had wanted to knock through the master bedroom into the kitchen on our end to make a lovely big open plan eating/cooking/sitting area and incorporate an updated conservatory but that plan was all WAY over budget. Current architect is just trying to do as much as we can on budget but I am still thinking the conservatory needs knocking down and extending into a nice sun room area where we can also have a bootroom/laundry area but not be a corridor in from the outside for mucky people and dogs. Turning the garage into a two room area is 34k and it just seems to be swallowing our  money just doing the basics.  From a purely selfish point of view for the future I would begrudge making a beautiful space in the holiday rental for guests when it should be us benefitting from it hence why I am still fixated on the conservatory/kitchen area because I think that is where a lovely area can be created. Walls are mainly brick at that end of the house (except the far end wall of the garage which is 2ft stone) too so I assume it's quicker and cheaper to knock them about than old rubble walls?  Again I really do appreciate your help

[PeterW]

 Struggling to see a £50k internals bill here @Powerjen just for one end of the building. 

 

Can you share the QS estimates ..??

 

 

[Powerjen]

2 minutes ago, PeterW said:

 Struggling to see a £50k internals bill here @Powerjen just for one end of the building. 

 

Can you share the QS estimates ..??

 

 

Hi Peter thank you for your comment.

 

1 shower room ensuite 7,473

2 new kitchen 14,467 (though that does include 8k for units!)

3 new bathroom off kitchen 4,104

4 conversion of existing attached garage to dining room/guest room 20,654

Sub Total - 46,698

There is additional work that needs doing like replacing lath and plaster and adding more electrical sockets etc in rooms that are not mentioned hence the rounded up figure.

 

The figures were what sparked my first post on here querying as to how realistic QS figures are!

 

Thanks again.

[Powerjen]

@PeterW, forgot to say that's less VAT too.

[PeterW]

Wowsers ..!!! DIY kitchens you can get a good kitchen for £4k...

 

£9k all in for an en-suite I would want solid gold taps and hot and cold running WC flush ....... 

 

Not sure on the £20k as don’t know what it includes but that again seems steep. 

[Powerjen]

@PeterW I agree which is why I joined this fab group for advice. I am finding it all dreadfully depressing at the moment to be honest. I am sure that I can cut costs massively on fixtures and fittings but it isn't helpful if it's not giving me an indication as to what we can afford to do without alot of additional detective work on my part. I just need to move my old folks in and care for them Thanks again for your input.

[Ferdinand]

28 minutes ago, Powerjen said:

Hi Peter thank you for your comment.

 

1 shower room ensuite 7,473

2 new kitchen 14,467 (though that does include 8k for units!)

3 new bathroom off kitchen 4,104

4 conversion of existing attached garage to dining room/guest room 20,654

Sub Total - 46,698

There is additional work that needs doing like replacing lath and plaster and adding more electrical sockets etc in rooms that are not mentioned hence the rounded up figure.

 

The figures were what sparked my first post on here querying as to how realistic QS figures are!

 

Thanks again.

 

That is perhaps a quote for an architectural view, by my eye - and may not pay sufficient attention to services and fabric. Does it have, for example, a new heating system included? And what work on the fabric? The new glazing? In my view, your ensuite and bathroom together could well come in at 6-7k for a good standard of finish. 

 

I have comments to make on the project sequencing etc later on, so I will leave that there.

 

But more on that later.

 

For now - given that you have a full QS assessment, which I think you mentioned, I suggest a quick "top slice" on some of that data - so that you begin to build an understanding of where your prices may actually be. By top slice I mean select a sample of items - say a couple you think you understand and every 10th or 15th in the list, and check what prices you can easily find for those.

 

Create a spreadsheet parallel to the QS, and just start to make some quick comparisons with the best you can easily find online or locally - this is not to do with dissing the QS, which is still useful information, but building understanding of what you can do in your particular circumstances.

 

Ferdinand

 

Edited May 30, 2019 by Ferdinand

[Ferdinand]

1 minute ago, Powerjen said:

@PeterW I agree which is why I joined this fab group for advice. I am finding it all dreadfully depressing at the moment to be honest. I am sure that I can cut costs massively on fixtures and fittings but it isn't helpful if it's not giving me an indication as to what we can afford to do without alot of additional detective work on my part. I just need to move my old folks in and care for them Thanks again for your input.

 

Hopefully various bods here can help you do your detective work in the most useful directions.

 

I think that whilst you have the budget to do it well, to keep to budget it will need to be done carefully to avoid sacrificing quality. And I think you do not have the budget to throw an army at it except for specific small projects. As it is a long term house, I would not want to sacrifice practical quality.

 

It is a significantly large renovation (2000-2500 sqft?), so I would probably suggest some sort of phasing, based around what you actually need to have by Christmas plus stuff which is basic (eg structure changes for spaces you are renovating now), and the overall strategic things you need to do now. Overall things might be roof-repair, sort floors, perhaps rewire and reheat in part, and reglaze. 

 

F

[joe90]

Before I met her my wife bought a house at auction that “needed work “ she had no idea what it would cost and a friend was a QS and he told her approx £25k, she met me and I took it on and (if I charged her labour) could have done it for £8k.

[Powerjen]

Hi @Ferdinand I really do appreciate your help. The costings there include glazing for the new 'dining room' (really a bedroom) but doesn't include cost of windows in any other rooms, QS has costed £800 a window and I know I can get them (not the same spec as I don't want wood sliding sash) for £400 and the company is happy to make them for us as and when we can afford them. Same goes for the heating, quote includes just a towel rail in bathroom and radiator in dining room. They have quoted 14k to install a new system in the rest of the house. annoyingly though I have been chasing the QS for 3 weeks now and only have a third of the figures. I feel we have wasted all of May just trying to get figures from them, so I have started to work things out myself - like the windows and looking for builders who can give rough quotes on basic things like creating a doorway through brick and stone to compare costs between them and a QS. Getting tradesman here is hard as we are very rural. The other option is for me to get hands on and do as much as I can and get specialist trades in as and when I can...  I agree that we should be looking at doing the fabric of the building etc first though it almost feels as though these things like the roof will have to wait and we should just get on with the internal stuff for my parents and worry about the other stuff at a later date. It isn't how you should do it and it was the original plan to do it by the book but my heart tells me money spent on updating a roof which is mainly ok could be spent on a bathroom and kitchen for my parents... ugh

[Powerjen]

46 minutes ago, joe90 said:

Before I met her my wife bought a house at auction that “needed work “ she had no idea what it would cost and a friend was a QS and he told her approx £25k, she met me and I took it on and (if I charged her labour) could have done it for £8k.

You don't fancy coming to 'holiday' in Scotland for a month or two this summer do you...! ?

[joe90]

59 minutes ago, Powerjen said:

You don't fancy coming to 'holiday' in Scotland for a month or two this summer do you...! ?

 

Ha, no chance (sorry) I am burnt out having spent the last 3 years building mine. I am looking forward to gardening, pottering with my vintage tractor and classic car. My wife (still working) reckons I will be bored when the build is finished, no chance!!!

 

note, this forum has been a mine of brilliant information , I have learnt so much invaluable knowledge despite being a retired builder. Never be worried about asking a “stupid question”, stupid is not asking!