readiescards Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 (edited) Having trouble commissioning UFH system, consisting of a Wunda manifold and Salus Auto Balancing Actuators. I called up Salus tech department and they mentioned the units have a 20 minute calibration period but the support guy was unable to clarify if this is every time a call heat was made or just once (and if once how do you reset it). Nor did he know what the flashing LED meant. (I suspect it is merely a rebadged device, as he requested I send an email, which I will, that he will send to the designer who 'designs these for use all over the world'). Quicker to ask on BuildHub I suspect! So: Does anyone know if the Salus Auto Balancing Actuators do a calibration learn on every call for heat and if that is was the LED flashing (rather than steady) means? Edited January 16, 2019 by readiescards grammar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 The simple answer is that they don't have any learning period as such, they just work to maintain a set temperature differential between the two sensors (they don't care which way around the sensors are fitted, either). The flashing LED means the motor is operating to open or close the valve a bit, so they will periodically do this as they motor the valve in order to maintain the temperature differential. The actual temperature differential they try to achieve depends on the flow temperature, so if it's below about 30 deg C (IIRC) it tries to maintain a 4 deg C differential, above 30 deg C and I believe it tries to maintain a 7 deg C differential. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
readiescards Posted January 16, 2019 Author Share Posted January 16, 2019 Thanks @JSHarris for the qucik reply.. The tech guys suggested they have a 20 minute calibration period and I'm seeing a sort of 'learning mode/self calibration' when they are first asked for heat, where the device opens all the way up (taking about a minute with LED flashing) and becomes very loose in the holder (since it has come off the manifold valve pin), then it closes up a bit. Do you see this on every heat request or have yours 'learnt' your system or are yours constantly on maintaining the temp difference? Also how tight have you installed them? As my plumber believes the actuators when in the off mode, are closing the manifold pin too hard so causing the pin to jam ( I thought I'd also seen that but now I'm not so sure now) and not open up when a call for heat is made, so currently they are installed a bit loose to stop the pin being rammed into the manifold hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 I've never seen the learning behaviour, but according to the manual it must have done it when I originally wired it up for the very first time. It doesn't do this every time it's powered up, though, as it seems to have a supercapacitor inside to allow the calibration to be remembered for a fair time. There is a procedure for getting it to recalibrate, which involves powering it on for 20 seconds, then powering it off again within one minute, then powering it on again, when it will go into the calibration mode. Mine's powered off except when there's a call for heat, and it opens up and starts to regulate within about 30 seconds at the most, until it has settled to its initial opening point. I've not seen the 2 minute turn on time that is given in the manual, and suspect that may be for the worst case condition As the manifold starts to heat up it will occasionally motor the valve for a few seconds as it readjusts, but that's all. When powered off the internal spring just winds the valve back to being closed again. Mine is screwed tight down on to the head, and isn't at all loose. The manual for them is here: https://www.salus-controls.eu/media/product/docs/thb23030-qb-we-v003-compressed.pdf 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
readiescards Posted April 13, 2019 Author Share Posted April 13, 2019 Still having issues with these TB23030 units, now on a different circuit. Seems they can not cope with the floor temperature being a lot colder than the UFH input temp. It recently took more than 3 days to get one tiny 2x2m room from 14.5 degrees to 19 degrees as the TB23030 keeps clamping the heat flow valve shut and only allows 10-20 seconds of heat into the loop once in a while - so really drip feeding the heat. Raising an issue with their tech support now but we resorted to replacing two units already with simple JG actuator valves for one room already and I'm keen to do that for the next problem we are now experiencing issues with but not at my cost Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted April 13, 2019 Share Posted April 13, 2019 @readiescards were these supplied by Wunda..? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
readiescards Posted April 13, 2019 Author Share Posted April 13, 2019 I don't know for sure (I was one step removed from the ordering process) but it is a Wunda UFH manifold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted April 13, 2019 Share Posted April 13, 2019 Got a picture ...?? Wunda sell their own brand so wondering why the plumber didn’t use those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpmiller Posted April 13, 2019 Share Posted April 13, 2019 have you tried turning the flow down on the manifold? I'm wondering if the actuator can't control finely enough and is massively overshooting, it *is* a pretty small loop... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted April 13, 2019 Share Posted April 13, 2019 My experience with the Salus actuator is that it seems to always try to maintain a 4°C temperature differential between flow and return when the flow is below 30°C, and a 7°C temperature differential if the flow is above 30°C (never tried this, as our flow doesn't get this high). I've never seen ours actually shut off at all, but you can hear it motoring for a minute or two after switch on, as it adjusts to get the valve opening matched to the temperature differential. I have noticed that it initially opens too far (as you'd expect) then starts to close down as things warm up. I think I'd be inclined to put a couple of thermometer probes right at the clip-on temperature sensors for the valve, to see what the temperature differential is, and what the sensed flow temperature is, as the actuator sees it. I've a collection of cheap thermometers from eBay, that have remote probes, and which are useful for this kind of monitoring task. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
readiescards Posted April 13, 2019 Author Share Posted April 13, 2019 Attached a photo of one of the now unused units. A couple of clip on thermometers seems a neat idea to monitor the flow temperatures Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
readiescards Posted April 16, 2019 Author Share Posted April 16, 2019 On 13/04/2019 at 11:05, JSHarris said: I've a collection of cheap thermometers from eBay, that have remote probes, and which are useful for this kind of monitoring task. I can find clip on pipe temperature gauges: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/0-120-C-PIPE-CLIP-ON-DIAL-THERMOMETER-TEMPERATURE-TEMP-GAUGE-SPRING-63MM/382782449575 But they are not practical for such a tight space, can you send a link to the temp gauges with remote probes you have found useful please Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted April 16, 2019 Share Posted April 16, 2019 1 minute ago, readiescards said: I can find clip on pipe temperature gauges: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/0-120-C-PIPE-CLIP-ON-DIAL-THERMOMETER-TEMPERATURE-TEMP-GAUGE-SPRING-63MM/382782449575 But they are not practical for such a tight space, can you send a link to the temp gauges with remote probes you have found useful please The ones I have don't have clip on sensors, just probes at the end of leads that can be taped or cable tied to a pipe: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Digital-LCD-Thermometer-for-Refrigerator-Fridge-Freezer-Temperature-FT/113008453181?_trkparms=aid%3D555018%26algo%3DPL.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D57478%26meid%3Daeca8244fe7141aea66332424431482e%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D12%26sd%3D182565788871%26itm%3D113008453181&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851 If you don't mind waiting you can get them from China for under £1 each, delivered: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mini-LCD-Digital-Temperature-Thermometer-Outdoor-Indoor-Meter-Probe-Measuring/123696872545?hash=item1ccce87c61:g:45wAAOSwajRcj5Is&frcectupt=true Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
readiescards Posted April 16, 2019 Author Share Posted April 16, 2019 Thank @JSHarris 4 ordered FYI Salus are shipping are going to three new units from Germany, to see if that fixes the issue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
readiescards Posted April 25, 2019 Author Share Posted April 25, 2019 New units arrived ? Salus support report: "Since ABA release we have been made aware of occasional issues with smaller UFH circuits and/or working at lower temperatures. Our latest firmware release for ABA overcome this issue and I am happy to send you replacement units" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
readiescards Posted April 30, 2019 Author Share Posted April 30, 2019 I'm glad to report the new Salus units are working perfectly. Took 20 mins for the bathroom to go from 16 to 19.5 degrees - was taking 36 hours before! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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