Wes Posted August 14, 2018 Author Share Posted August 14, 2018 1 minute ago, ProDave said: Unless I am getting confused, your earlier picture showed neutral at the light switch. So your house is wired "loop at switch" so you should only have a single L, N and E at the light fitting. Perhaps 2 of each if the switch controls more than 1 light and it loops off to another light fitting. Time for some dead testing to check the continuity of the L and N connections all the way. Yes, that was the switch to the outside light. Looking at the indoor light where I believe the problem is, there used to be a ceiling fan and light there when we bought the house. There is a two switch unit where one switch works the light and the other used to control the fan...but now does nothing as fan is removed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Posted August 14, 2018 Author Share Posted August 14, 2018 4 minutes ago, Onoff said: I'm a bit lost but guessing a WORKING rose has been ditched and a new light put up? If you look at the look in wiring pdfs then in the rose there are in effect separate 2 and 3 way connectors. There MIGHT be space to replicate this using 2 and 3 way Wago blocks where the light fitting meets the ceiling. Something like this, not on a light circuit but you get the drift: You need to identify the cables, mark the switched lives probably blue with a brown sleeve and rewire. Edit: Good point from Dave, my diagrams DO NOT show the loop at switch method. Onoff - yes, correct. Ditched the ceiling rose and fitted a new light, Which now means there are some wires loose with insulation tape around them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 For the avoidance of doubt, unscrew the light fitting and post a picture of the connections . Also post a picture inside the switch that controls this light (and previously the fan) Posting a picture of a completely different light switch only serves to confuse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 1 minute ago, Wes said: Onoff - yes, correct. Ditched the ceiling rose and fitted a new light, Which now means there are some wires loose with insulation tape around them. I think this may be the problem then. What makes you think you can just ignore "spare" wires? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Posted August 14, 2018 Author Share Posted August 14, 2018 1 minute ago, ProDave said: For the avoidance of doubt, unscrew the light fitting and post a picture of the connections . Also post a picture inside the switch that controls this light (and previously the fan) Posting a picture of a completely different light switch only serves to confuse. Apologies for the confusion ProDave - I posted that as it is the switch controlling the faulty light outside. Will take pics of the inside light and switch tonight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Posted August 14, 2018 Author Share Posted August 14, 2018 1 minute ago, ProDave said: I think this may be the problem then. What makes you think you can just ignore "spare" wires? I think it was confusion with the ceiling fan...I thought as it was removed, the wires need to be capped but clearly this causes issues down the line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 Sounds possible that there were linked neutrals in the ceiling fan fitting, that are now separated. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 2 minutes ago, Wes said: I think it was confusion with the ceiling fan...I thought as it was removed, the wires need to be capped but clearly this causes issues down the line. I await the pictures. Sadly you may have made the solution a lot harder as you have probably lost track of which ones should join together, and no it is not all blues and all browns joined together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Posted August 14, 2018 Author Share Posted August 14, 2018 2 minutes ago, ProDave said: I await the pictures. Sadly you may have made the solution a lot harder as you have probably lost track of which ones should join together, and no it is not all blues and all browns joined together. This is true... The indoor light does work fine with the switch, so at least I do know the live and neutral there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoff Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 37 minutes ago, Wes said: Onoff - yes, correct. Ditched the ceiling rose and fitted a new light, Which now means there are some wires loose with insulation tape around them. You mean YOU ditched the ceiling rose? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Posted August 14, 2018 Author Share Posted August 14, 2018 28 minutes ago, Onoff said: You mean YOU ditched the ceiling rose? ☹️yep...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 "wires loose with some insulation tape around them" sounds like a recipe for starting a fire too me. At this point I think I would be on the phone, getting a properly qualified electrician around to inspect and rectify things to an acceptable standard. DIY is fine up to a point, but there are very real dangers associated with not correctly terminating cables behind ceilings, in particular. Some "electrical" tape quickly tends to go sticky and come undone when it gets warm, leaving the very real possibility of an electrical short in the ceiling void. The regs are pretty tight on terminating cables in closed off locations like this, and the type of enclosure that should surround the terminations. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 12 minutes ago, JSHarris said: "wires loose with some insulation tape around them" sounds like a recipe for starting a fire too me. At this point I think I would be on the phone, getting a properly qualified electrician around to inspect and rectify things to an acceptable standard. DIY is fine up to a point, but there are very real dangers associated with not correctly terminating cables behind ceilings, in particular. Some "electrical" tape quickly tends to go sticky and come undone when it gets warm, leaving the very real possibility of an electrical short in the ceiling void. The regs are pretty tight on terminating cables in closed off locations like this, and the type of enclosure that should surround the terminations. +1. It would be careless of us to continue advising you without being there and testing on your behalf. There are folk who we trades refer to as "know enough to be dangerous" and as you have inadvertently damaged ( severely compromised the integrity of to the point it is dangerous ) your own wiring through mis-adventure then yes, the time had come to get a sparky out. Its probably a very quick fix so explain you've sought help and have identified the issues so they don't pull your trousers down. ? "Make the call". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Posted August 14, 2018 Author Share Posted August 14, 2018 15 minutes ago, JSHarris said: "wires loose with some insulation tape around them" sounds like a recipe for starting a fire too me. At this point I think I would be on the phone, getting a properly qualified electrician around to inspect and rectify things to an acceptable standard. DIY is fine up to a point, but there are very real dangers associated with not correctly terminating cables behind ceilings, in particular. Some "electrical" tape quickly tends to go sticky and come undone when it gets warm, leaving the very real possibility of an electrical short in the ceiling void. The regs are pretty tight on terminating cables in closed off locations like this, and the type of enclosure that should surround the terminations. Agreed on this. The wires are outside the ceiling, in the light fitting. Will get these sorted urgently. Thanks Wes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 Acceptable terminations inside a fitting are screw terminal blocks, wagos or insulated crimps (the latter wouldn't normally be used on a removable item). Acceptable terminations in a closed space would be insulated crimps (ideally with additional heat shrink sleeving of the correct colour), soldered joints insulated with heat shrink sleeving, or wago connectors, but not screw terminals. Any such terminations in a closed space also need to be in an acceptable housing - wago boxes are ideal for this sort of use usually. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Posted August 14, 2018 Author Share Posted August 14, 2018 Hi all so for interest, this is what’s under the light fitting: 3 wires coming in from the ceiling: 1: - Live (terminates in terminal block) - Neutral, not connected to anything - earth, not Connected to anything.. 2: -Live (terminates in terminal block) - black wire with brown sheath (not connected to anything) - grey wire with brown sheath connected to live of light 3: - live (terminates in terminal block) - neutral connected to neutral of light - earth All three earth wires appear to be twisted together and sheathed into one. The switch for the light has two switches. One works the light with no problems and the other does nothing (was used to operate the fan) The only two wires I disconnected when taking the ceiling rose off was the neutral and earth from wire 1 above. See pics but not sure you can make out much from them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 Don;t use the terms "live, neutral" etc, just stick to colours, e.g a blue may not always be neutral I am going to take an educated guess. Cable 1 and cable 3 are the feed in and feed out. cable 2 is the switch drop. Because there was a fan and a light, they used 3 core. So start with joining cable 1 brown, cable 3 brown, and cable 2 brown together in a junction that goes nowhere else. Cable 1 blue and cable 3 blue join together to the light fitting N terminal Cable 2 black is the switched L for the fan. It is no longer needed so connect it to a terminal all on it's own. cable 2 grey is the light switched L connect it as you have done to the light fitting L Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Posted August 14, 2018 Author Share Posted August 14, 2018 What happens with the earth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoff Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 4 minutes ago, Wes said: What happens with the earth? All get connected together and also to any earth terminal on the light fitting. I sleeve mine individually rather than twist them all together like that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 1 hour ago, Wes said: What happens with the earth? You already said they were twisted together so they stay that way, and if the light fitting has an earth, connect them to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 Oh and as I say so many times on the Electricians forum, if you are going to change a light fitting, identify all the wires, take pictures, and draw a diagram BEFORE you remove the old light fitting. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoff Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 @Wes, any of these your handiwork? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Posted August 19, 2018 Author Share Posted August 19, 2018 (edited) To ProDave and everybody else who helped me here, thanks so much! All works a treat now and no more loose wires about! Wago connectors worked brilliantly! Open neutral it was indeed. Whats great is that I have also learnt something in the process. Edited August 19, 2018 by Wes 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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