Dormer Bungalow to 2 storey

[JLB]

Hi All,

 

I've been reading this site for a couple of years, and now decided it's time to make my first post. My partner and I are currently looking at a building plot (a garden plot divided from the current owners) which has full planning permission for a 3 bed dormer bungalow. 

 

A bit about the plot:

The current plot has a south facing garden, with 2 storey houses to the rear, right and on the other side of the road. To the left of the proposed dwelling is a bungalow.  The proposed dwelling is 4.6m from the bungalow and the house to the right hand side, and 16 meters to the houses at the rear (they only have small yard, no garden). The current planning permission sets an eave height of 3.8m and a ridge height of 8.3m. The current proposed roof schematic runs so the eaves are only 3.8m by the bungalow (so in affect the roof is long).

 

Currently the master bedroom only has a small window and two roof windows, but if we were to increase the eave height we would like a full sized window at the back of the property. Previously, the rear houses but in a object saying the window would over look there houses, (which are 16 meters back).

 

Questions:

1. Do you think we would have much success in putting in the a new planning application to increase the eave height to two storey? (From my reading, I don't think this would increase the ridge height)
2. How much of a headache do you think it would be to a get a full sized bedroom window at the rear of the property?

 

I've attached a link to the planning application.

https://pa.shropshire.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=summary&keyVal=NOLKXCTD0HG00

 

We thank you for your help. We would of course put in an offer subject to new planning permission, but would be useful to find out experiences before we do so. 

 

I hope that is clear, if not ask away and I will answer any questions. 

 

John

[ProDave]

I assume by rear you mean the master bedroom that is at the bottom in the floor layout plans?

 

Is No 37 an ordinary bungallow or does it have dormers or windows in it's roof

 

The issue no doubt will be one of overlooking No 37. If you try for instance putting in a dormer in the master bedroom I feel that would be rejected because it would overlook No 37

 

I would at least try for a window in the end wall of the master bedroom. At the moment you just have that little window in the 45 degree bit. There is certainly room to get a reasonable window in the rear where there is currently a blank wall.  Why has it been proposed like that? I think you need to read the full planning file to see if there was an objection from the house behind that stopped there being a proper window in that end wall.

[Ferdinand]

Welcome.

 

16m face to face for habitable rooms sounds (from memory) tight for direct facing, but you need to check the exact policy of your Council and find a form acceptable to you that meets that policy. Some have variable distances depending on the angles, and it may vary depending on whether it is 1st vs ground, whether their rooms are habitable etc.

 

 ALternatively you can stretch the policy and make an argument which may or may not work, and then or Appeal it if it fails and the Appeal may or may not work.

 

You could possibly do eg  skirting level windows in a bedroom so you see only your garden downwards or with restricted views such that you cannot see into their rooms. OR at an angle eg side viewing oriel window.

 

AT GND level you could eg propose a 2m fence and a condition to retain it permanently.

 

Lots of options, but you need to know the policy limitations first.

 

Given that one neighbour is built at an angle, there may be scope for an angled window viewing parallel to their angled back wall. TIme to dust off those geometry skills.

 

Ferdinand.

 

Edited March 11, 2018 by Ferdinand

[Ferdinand]

YOu need to check the Planning Gain contributions with a toothcomb.

 

I am not clear whether they can currently be levied on single dwelling developments, and Shropshire have a substantial history of utter chaos on these points, and the original PP is around the time of maximum confusion.

 

I would recommend checking the national policy position with the Planning Aid service of the RTPI at http://www.rtpi.org.uk/planning-aid/, then checking locally.

 

Ferdinand

 

[JLB]

Hi,

Thanks for the comments, very helpful indeed. 

 

On 3/11/2018 at 12:31, ProDave said:

I assume by rear you mean the master bedroom that is at the bottom in the floor layout plans?

 

Is No 37 an ordinary bungallow or does it have dormers or windows in it's roof

 

The issue no doubt will be one of overlooking No 37. If you try for instance putting in a dormer in the master bedroom I feel that would be rejected because it would overlook No 37

 

I would at least try for a window in the end wall of the master bedroom. At the moment you just have that little window in the 45 degree bit. There is certainly room to get a reasonable window in the rear where there is currently a blank wall.  Why has it been proposed like that? I think you need to read the full planning file to see if there was an objection from the house behind that stopped there being a proper window in that end wall.

Yes, I meant the master bedroom at the bottom of the floor plans. No 37 is an ordinary bungalow.

 

 

On 3/11/2018 at 13:07, Ferdinand said:

Welcome.

 

16m face to face for habitable rooms sounds (from memory) tight for direct facing, but you need to check the exact policy of your Council and find a form acceptable to you that meets that policy. Some have variable distances depending on the angles, and it may vary depending on whether it is 1st vs ground, whether their rooms are habitable etc.

 

 

Following your comments, I've looked at the national planning policies, and it looks like the minimum required distance between two habitable rooms is 21m. I've investigated the plans further and it looks like its 16m from the new dwelling window to the boundary edge at the end of the garden, and therefore like 19m from the current neighbours window. I think we could adjust the plans to bring window back around .75-1m (making the master bedroom smaller) therefore, I think we would almost be at the required distance. The planning application does state an object from this neighbour though......

 

On 3/11/2018 at 13:20, Ferdinand said:

YOu need to check the Planning Gain contributions with a toothcomb.

 

I am not clear whether they can currently be levied on single dwelling developments, and Shropshire have a substantial history of utter chaos on these points, and the original PP is around the time of maximum confusion.

 

I would recommend checking the national policy position with the Planning Aid service of the RTPI at http://www.rtpi.org.uk/planning-aid/, then checking locally.

 

Ferdinand

 

 

We've looked into the Shropshire council, looks like we will have to pay the affordability housing contribution (around 9k for this plot) but will be exemption from the CIL payments. Is there anything else we should be aware of for planning gain contributions? I'll double check the position with the planning aid service nonetheless. 

 

Does anyone see any reasons that we could apply for increasing the eave height to full double storey? The current bungalow will be 4.6m to the side, therefore I can't see it causing much overlooking/shadowing difference.

 

John 

 

 

[Ferdinand]

The separation distances and relationships are also affected by local policy, how that policy is interpreted, the leeway they may give you, and if they are being more generous today for reasons unknown. So you need also to be aware of local policy and practice if you are anywhere near skating any boundaries. LPAs have a lot of leeway in what they do, and a lot of options. Check the exact way in which the policies are interpreted and tested - you may be able to walk the line with something very close to what you really want.

 

A Planning Officer might come out with something as nebulous as "seems too cramped" as a reason for refusal, which may or may not stand up if challenged. There are many ways of challenging.

 

The only recommendation I can give is to take time, take care, do as much homework as possible, and really sweat the detail.

 

1 hour ago, JLB said:

We've looked into the Shropshire council, looks like we will have to pay the affordability housing contribution (around 9k for this plot) but will be exemption from the CIL payments. Is there anything else we should be aware of for planning gain contributions? I'll double check the position with the planning aid service nonetheless.

 

Unfortunately there is a whole bookshop of things you can usefully know about Planning Gain contributions :-). And it is likely to be a different bookshop with a different selection of books in every Local Authority. For example if they do not spend it in 5 years you can get it back (may not apply to Affordable Contributions).

 

Around the time your previous PP was obtained there was a precedent setting Court Case which ruled out Section 106 for small (<10 dwellings?) developments. I believe there was some action by Govt to mitigate the impact, but I do not know the outcome. Needs a check or someone may know.

 

One option would be

 

1 - To take time to read the entire previous PP, and also read the entire file (which may not all be on the website) - perhaps submit an FOI request.

2 - Then study all the local relevant planning policies. Then come up with a list of questions from your notes and a specification as to what you actually want.

3 - Then - looking at your questions and how many you have not got the foggiest notion about - if you need pay (up to several hundred £££) a local consultant to spend some time reviewing your information, and arrange a meeting for 1-2 hours where you discuss your list of questions. To navigate the planning system  can sometimes need someone almost like a ghillie (the hunting guide not the dancing shoe). Call it an insurance policy.

4 - The consultant acid test is that they know the LPA inside out and has done a number of similar planning apps, and knows the individual planning officers and their styles by name. You need to test their knowledge / experience not that they seem to know more than you; the latter could just be a skilled bullshitter.

 

That may be tedious, and you may have done some of it, but at the end you will be in a far better position to understand the circumstances you are operating in, and there may be nuggets that will save you thousands and a lot of frustration.

 

Best of luck.

 

Ferdinand

 

Edited March 12, 2018 by Ferdinand

[JLB]

On 12/03/2018 at 16:06, Ferdinand said:

 

Unfortunately there is a whole bookshop of things you can usefully know about Planning Gain contributions :-). And it is likely to be a different bookshop with a different selection of books in every Local Authority. For example if they do not spend it in 5 years you can get it back (may not apply to Affordable Contributions).

 

Around the time your previous PP was obtained there was a precedent setting Court Case which ruled out Section 106 for small (<10 dwellings?) developments. I believe there was some action by Govt to mitigate the impact, but I do not know the outcome. Needs a check or someone may know.

 

One option would be

 

1 - To take time to read the entire previous PP, and also read the entire file (which may not all be on the website) - perhaps submit an FOI request.

2 - Then study all the local relevant planning policies. Then come up with a list of questions from your notes and a specification as to what you actually want.

3 - Then - looking at your questions and how many you have not got the foggiest notion about - if you need pay (up to several hundred £££) a local consultant to spend some time reviewing your information, and arrange a meeting for 1-2 hours where you discuss your list of questions. To navigate the planning system  can sometimes need someone almost like a ghillie (the hunting guide not the dancing shoe). Call it an insurance policy.

4 - The consultant acid test is that they know the LPA inside out and has done a number of similar planning apps, and knows the individual planning officers and their styles by name. You need to test their knowledge / experience not that they seem to know more than you; the latter could just be a skilled bullshitter.

 

 

 

Thanks again Ferdinand for such a detailed response and apologies for the lateness of this reply. You're help has been invaluable.

 

We have been in contact with a couple of planning consultants and will be meeting with them in the next month. We have used a house design software to come up with layouts and designs we like so we have something to show and engage the consultants with. 

 

In terms of the Planning gains contribution .. that needs more digging as new dwellings approved recently seem to have no contributions attached to the planning currently

 

Thanks again,

John

Edited March 22, 2018 by JLB

[Ferdinand]

Cheers.