After endless delays for one reason and another my project is finally progressing and today I got in the QS report the architect advised I get, and it's wildly, egregiously bigger than expected. To be clear, I did a lot of research on pricing before I even started firming up the scope of the project because I wanted to be realistic in my expectations, and the architect had previously indicated to me that my rough budget would have to increase about 30% if I were to have everything done professionally, but as I would be doing substantial amounts of the work myself he thought my own thinking was pretty acceptable, maybe I'd have to adjust my expectations towards the "you WILL end up spending your contingency by the end" side of things rather than just replying "haha, oh wait you aren't kidding" to my number.

The QS report based on the first stage plans that just came back is almost three times the architect's rough expectation for "pro" work, hell it's double what I paid for the sodding house. Some of it is in line with what I expected based on research and conversations with a few tradie mates, but some is just wild, like the estimate for new electrical is quadruple what a buddy said I could expect to pay(and not at mates' rates, I asked him for a worst-case rough figure, total replacement). Looking through his figures I'm not sure that labour can be accounting for the huge discrepancies, in some cases I'm looking at an item and I can cost the materials from online suppliers(yes including VAT) for like, 10% of the number he's stating. I suppose I'm just asking for a sanity check - am I mad, or does that sound odd to people that the discrepancy between expectation and report would be so big?

Oh and just to give you a specific item for consideration(can't edit the post for some reason) - estimated cost ex-VAT to cut a standard size doorway into a non-load bearing block cavity wall including lintels, but nothing else: £2100, in central Scotland.

3 hours ago, YodhrinForge said:

Oh and just to give you a specific item for consideration(can't edit the post for some reason) - estimated cost ex-VAT to cut a standard size doorway into a non-load bearing block cavity wall including lintels, but nothing else: £2100, in central Scotland.

Doesnt seem right as part of a project. Maybe this price is if you were just having someone in to do that 1 task in an otherwised finished house? Id be asking questions of this qs. How much did you pay him? I always try to keep consultants fees to a minimum.

6 hours ago, YodhrinForge said:

can't edit the post for some reason

Editing gets knocked out after 30 minutes. Allows you to change spelling mistakes or make a simple clarification, but does not allow the post to be rewritten in the light if replies (there have been cases of that on other forums).

3 hours ago, Oz07 said:

Doesnt seem right as part of a project. Maybe this price is if you were just having someone in to do that 1 task in an otherwised finished house? Id be asking questions of this qs. How much did you pay him? I always try to keep consultants fees to a minimum.

In terms of the QS' report, he's assumed the whole project would be done professionally(in reality I'll be doing much of it myself but that shouldn't impact his costings as the point was to get a comparison and figure out which parts would be worth DIYing and which would be "eh sod it let someone else do that dirty bit" situations) so the job would include two small extensions with associated works, replacement of the primary drain and inspection pits, a small dormer, filling in a small window and a doorway, and cutting this door - there are other aspects to the project but thinking about it purely from a "what work might a builder do" perspective. The costings are just weird in general, there are some that are bang on in line with my own research and then others that are wildly different, there's stuff that I was expecting to come in more expensive than I had estimated because finding specific info as a pleb was difficult but they turned out cheaper in the report, it's all over the joint. And even using London rates for labor and assuming they hired equipment at disadvantageous pleb rates I couldn't push that door job much above a grand. Another one - blocking up that small 0.6 x 0.8m window in a blockwork cavity wall, proposed to cost 1100 quid ex-VAT. I've seen lads who could bang that job out in less time than it would take me to make them a brew and a sarnie for their lunch and it's not like blocks and muck are expensive materials.

I suppose I'll just have to wait and see what my architect has to say about it, I was just in total shock reading it.

Edited 10 hours ago10 hr by YodhrinForge

Biased or real life opinion follows.

Architects generally underestimate the cost. It may be naivety or cynical.

A QS overestimates. It may be caution.

But let's say a practical Architect draws up a scheme and a QS lists the quantities formally as a bill of quantities. Then that goes out to 4 builders.

the quotes may vary by 20%, even assuming they all want the job.

But send out just the drawings and that can become 30%.

But then consider going to much more expert contractors. They have higher overheads but may have a brilliant idea of construction method. The variation becomes 40%.

I've been asked to propose a solution following formal tender and have halved the best quote and made money.

How? Architect had silly details and wasn't expert. Also had things the client couldn't afford.

QS said it must be priced as drawn.... no alternatives were allowed.

The QS tends to be taking average figures out of a book, usually all on the high side.

50 % saving is extreme. And the overall range I gathered was much more.

In summary.... I can't say, but based on your hands-on principle, the likelihood is a cost higher than you want or have assumed, and lower than the qs.

Do allow a big contingency though.

5 hours ago, saveasteading said:

Biased or real life opinion follows.

Architects generally underestimate the cost. It may be naivety or cynical.

A QS overestimates. It may be caution.

But let's say a practical Architect draws up a scheme and a QS lists the quantities formally as a bill of quantities. Then that goes out to 4 builders.

the quotes may vary by 20%, even assuming they all want the job.

But send out just the drawings and that can become 30%.

But then consider going to much more expert contractors. They have higher overheads but may have a brilliant idea of construction method. The variation becomes 40%.

I've been asked to propose a solution following formal tender and have halved the best quote and made money.

How? Architect had silly details and wasn't expert. Also had things the client couldn't afford.

QS said it must be priced as drawn.... no alternatives were allowed.

The QS tends to be taking average figures out of a book, usually all on the high side.

50 % saving is extreme. And the overall range I gathered was much more.

In summary.... I can't say, but based on your hands-on principle, the likelihood is a cost higher than you want or have assumed, and lower than the qs.

Do allow a big contingency though.

That's what's confusing me though, as my initial costings weren't just ballpark, I carefully researched different possible approaches to construction, I was planning stuff out to the number of CLS timbers required, how many fixings I'd need, how many rolls of airtight tape etc. My expectations on the electrical and plumbing were set based on conversations with mates who work in those fields or with plumbers and electricians I'd had over to the place already to do minor jobs. When I was costing anything with specific prices I assumed they were ex-VAT and added 20% regardless of whether the website specified or not just to avoid getting caught out by that, and where I couldn't find a nice neat "X for Y" pricetag like for labour I looked for multiple online estimates of similar jobs and purposefully assumed London rates/+20%. If there was a wasteage contingency of 5% I doubled it to 10. When calculating any quantity or dimension I rounded up at every stage of the process. At every stage I knew almost exactly what I wanted and made every effort to build in margins for error. My planned contingency fund was 25%. The architect was a little disappointed how little there was for him to do in a design sense, I really just needed him to draw up the plans, sanity check my notions about building regs, and handle the paperwork with other advisors and the council(he did have some useful feedback and made some changes to the design, but they didn't meaningfully change the quantities of materials or methods of construction).

I deliberately set out at every stage to not just be conservative, but outright pessimistic. And yet.

Has this QS broken out the cost of materials vs labour? Does the materials section match your expectations?

I've not done this so I'm regurgitating what others have done here but I know some have used estimators online as a sanity check for QS. AFAIK they cost a few hundred quid.

Not sure how it's going now, but I know that @flanagaj used them and is currently building with the aim of coming under their estimates as he moves through his project and at least as of a month or two ago was on track.

1 hour ago, -rick- said:

Has this QS broken out the cost of materials vs labour? Does the materials section match your expectations?

I've not done this so I'm regurgitating what others have done here but I know some have used estimators online as a sanity check for QS. AFAIK they cost a few hundred quid.

Not sure how it's going now, but I know that @flanagaj used them and is currently building with the aim of coming under their estimates as he moves through his project and at least as of a month or two ago was on track.

He didn't no, it's broken out by trade(builder, joiner, roofer, plumbing, electrical etc) and each job is then itemised in a list of columns by quantity, number of units, unit rate, and sum of the previous with subtotals for each section, but there's no distinction between materials and labour. I knew that would be their approach going in, but my assumption was they would be giving me vaguely accurate estimates so I could look at parts of the job where I already have detailed material costings I did myself and then draw conclusions about what diy-or-pro edge case jobs would swing either way, as well as get an idea for the final price of stuff I won't risk DIYing like the main drain, electrical, plumbing - the electrical for example, I'd been led to expect based on the size of the property(2 bed semi-detached cottage with existing attic conversion) - and this is by an electrician who actually visited and did work - rewiring to cost 4-6k total but the QS has it down as 12k, ex-VAT, and he makes mental assumptions like 6 hardwired appliance connections for my small kitchen despite the fact the plans have the washer & dryer moving to the utility(where there is also provision for appliances) and that I'll only need a max of 4 in total for the house(washer, dryer, oven, cooker hood). It's just full of little things like that which make me doubtful, but I'm not in trades myself and the constant drumbeat in research of "everything costs more than you think it will" then has me doubting my doubts.

Edited 2 hours ago2 hr by YodhrinForge

A QS is not an Estimator. They deal with contracts and process. If they could forecast a cost then we would have no need for tendering.

I was an estimator fir many years. Labour, plant and materials calculated for every item, then double analysed at the end.

Your person is probably using rates straight from a book or a previous project.

I once won a contract where we were asked to work to the Spons book of rates +/- x% and that's all we had to do to quote.

I vaguely remember bidding at Spons less 20% and doing quite well at it.

From what you are saying, I think you are very likely to be more accurate than they.

1 hour ago, saveasteading said:

A QS is not an Estimator. They deal with contracts and process. If they could forecast a cost then we would have no need for tendering.

I was an estimator fir many years. Labour, plant and materials calculated for every item, then double analysed at the end.

Your person is probably using rates straight from a book or a previous project.

I once won a contract where we were asked to work to the Spons book of rates +/- x% and that's all we had to do to quote.

I vaguely remember bidding at Spons less 20% and doing quite well at it.

From what you are saying, I think you are very likely to be more accurate than they.

I mean, literally the first and second thing QS are listed as being useful for on their wikipedia entry are cost feasibility and estimation, but okay I guess that's one of those "pleb not in the industry" things you only find out once you start paying people money hah ;) If they're mainly focused on the contractual/execution side I do wonder why everyone seems to advise bringing one in at stage 1 to help scope the project then, it seems like it would be more rational to go based on the architect's vibes for the basic plan and then go straight to getting costings from potential contractors and adjusting the subsequent stages from there.