Hi - Barn Glazing Renovation

[gcm]

Hi,

I am renovating the windows and glazing in a 1990s barn conversion.  A real eye opener for a householder and construction novice. Planning (revoked permitted development + proposed switch to Alu clad timber forced full application).  Consent achieved at 8 months - albeit with a few unwanted conditions: glazing bar per section (don't want - not difficult and less than now), mandated textured finish to Alu exterior (can accept but £).  Constraint on brick to frame reveal to be no shallower than existing (OK if I have understood).  Overall grimace - curse the planners - and move on.

I am mid way through specifying windows and attempting to (separately) source the three main stages of my project 1) interior cutback, 2) supply + a good fit windows, and 3) the make good new interior sills, + edging strip, re-plastering elements of the switch.  I didn't initially get involved in self build reading as much as I should.  I didn't really see the job as "building".  Just replacing windows. Amusingly naïve. 

Still on a vertical learning curve and dismayed to find windows are seemingly one of the "difficult bits" - full of conflicting advice, horror stories about failed installs, dreadful fitter subcontractor incentives to quickly bodge and flee behind weak T&C and hugely volatile pricing.

After my experience with current timber - I concluded I wanted a low maintenance passive exterior if I could find one that looked OK, that planning would accept and that I could afford (allowing for maintenance savings). I started with resellers or direct sales offices for many of the usual suspects for Alu clad - Internorm, Nordan, Rationel, Velfac, Broxwood looking for either a bundle or supply and matching NW England installer (Cheshire).   I have moved a subset of these onto actual quotation.

Some of my initial long list fell away due to some curved tops / awkward sectional tall >3m windows. Or I just didn't like the design/finish of product when I saw it at showroom or show.  Some self selected out as more focused on new build passive house.

I am joining here as I have a some specific queries where I would like to tap into forum technical knowledge -  I have asked local BC the questions but based on planning experience they may never answer or just promise to tell me whether it's wrong when they come to inspect which is - unhelpful.

Within forum constraints on sales promotion and indeed libel laws - I am also looking for leads or others' real world commercial experiences good and more challenging; with similar retrofit or conversion projects to help me benchmark potential suppliers for my retrofit. 

I may have missed someone very obvious so it is worth checking in as my process was pretty basic - web search, McCloud cult show visits, and some personal recommendations through up enough for a first pass. 

My project size is about 45qm.

Thank you in advance for any technical input with my questions

Graham
 

[le-cerveau]

Hi, and welcome,

 

I installed 45.5m² of Internorm windows + 5 large doors or is your overall project 45m²?

 

location was not such an issue we are in Cumbria but used ecohaus Internorm who are SW based, but it was a large install so travel was less of an issue.

My tallest window was on 2.55m though.

 

There are others here who have internorm/Rationell and others so ask you specific questions, we all have our preferences, I went with internorm as I wanted integrated blinds.

[Mr Punter]

Hi Graham

 

A section drawing through your current reveal would be helpful, as would a current photo from inside and out.

 

When you mention the textured finish, is this intended to be "wood grain"?

[ProDave]

How "textured" I would be interested to see that exact definition. 

 

Do the planners want a sample of the finish?  I know Rationel offer a slightly textured finish and gave us some samples that could be shown to the planners to ensure their acceptance?  You would have to ask them though if they do curves.

[gcm]

Thankfully I have not been asked to find Alu that looks like wood.  Granite texture is the consent mandate (a white granite - Velfac 01 (also known as Rationel Sable) or another white granite/stone extrusion that passes for that (or needs must I can go back with a new textured samples when my blood pressure returns to normal).  Skipping over ranting about why planning are as they are.  Gave planning velfac and rationel samples but not limiting myself to those two or current resellers if prices prove to be excessive vs market.

No section drawings as not part of inherited original conversion blueprints. But here are a couple of phone shots of a not untypical aperture. 

Deep interior reveals with plaster to curved internal corners (and some straight ones) some with plaster board and skim, some mixed where there is boxing in. May go edging strip + 6mm out from frame when making good plastering for new install. Not finalised that detail yet.  The softwood interior sills (clearly too wide for a thicker window section new install at same depth  would have to remove with plaster cut back, and if they survive either cut down or replace with new sills perhaps using existing for corner interior template purposes where relevant

Exterior red brick apertures per picture.  Behind the old red brick walls  the drawing *says* there is 65mm Rockwool wallbatts, 100mm insulite blocks, interior plaster render. Granite exterior sills in brickwork which are staying because they are nice and to contain impact.  No more details on how those wall components and window aperture come together as none currently exposed - 1990's practices with these materials and - an old building - variable depths to brickwork not all quite square.  Some excitement likely somewhere around the building when we start fiddling with it.
 

[gcm]

My areas for most active current research are:

1) Ideas and alternatives for dealing with a fairly full height barn aperture 270cm W x 333 cm H (to arch ~312cm to sides)

Current thinking is around Alu clad multi-section window for on site assembly at installation based primarily on weight handling and site access factors and cost to overcome these for something huge in one piece. Never say never but sections appear to be the way to go unless experience says different.

The existing softwood is 5 vertical strips arched (cheap and life expired embedded units inside exterior and interior frame - no horizontal break.  Lots of frame - but adequate glazing. Don't want softwood again.  Too much weather out there and too much faff on this window.

So could be 5 strip or 3 strip vertical or a square (with bonded glazing strips) and an arched headlight above with matching strips albeit with an unwanted horizontal break but fewer joins. 

I have been shopping window suppliers one at a time and some find the strips too narrow (if there are five), some find the height a problem and others again don't fancy the curved top.  Maybe there is something radical yet cost effective out there I haven't yet spotted.  I do hope so.

2) Retrofit red brick+block timber to alu clad installer fitting experiences - lessons learned - "I wish I had known X before" and any suggestions generally borne of experience with Velfac 200, Rationel FormaPlus, Broxwood or STM where they are working up prices. 

3) Recent Alu clad sq m high level supply rates and install fees vs job size and type (retrofit, new build) - whatever I can get to aid benchmarking what I get sent by resellers and fitters

To the le-cerveau query the ~44m2 is all windows. No doors in that number.  A mix of big and small from a tiny 0.3m2 to the 9m2 of problem child item 1 above.

[le-cerveau]

@gcm

My largest window is 4.32m² being 1.8m high and 2.4m wide split in the middle:

This is tilt/turn with build in blinds and wasn't the limit of size they could do.  I also have a 1.5m wide by 2.55m high quartered:

Again each one is tilt/turn with blinds, this in halfway up the stairs.

My smallest is 0.5m², so the full range.

 

For your problem child a see a few options:

just straight panels as you say, you have to keep the area of glass with a certain limit to avoid engineered glass.

 

Alternatively:

quarter is, should be within limits with a top light, these quarters could be openable if required.

 

Another option:

curved top sections (non openable) and rectangular bottom ones (openable).

The second one is probably easiest to manufacture, bottom one most practicable.