Anyone used BPC for ASHP? odd statement from them RE: ASHP sizing - Part F?

[JamesPa]

54 minutes ago, HughF said:

“6kW” r290 unit from cool energy is now around £2k, just saying.

 

It’s 3.5kW at -7/45 but that’s probably all you need anyway. Does weather comp.

 

Vaillant cylinder off eBay, bucket of fittings, throw it in yourself.

Yes but...

 

It took 6 long man days for a diligent contractor to do my retrofit (it was literally 1 man for 6 long days, no lunch break, starting 8.30 and working diligently until 6pm most days, 7 and 9pm on two occasions).  The installation comprised an ASHP, cylinder and 4 radiator swaps.  In addition I spent about 1.5days doing prep and make-good for the route of the primaries, and miscellaneous other works, and an electrician a couple of hours wiring in the feed (first fix by me).   So the best part of 8 man days in total.

 

If you have the time and appetite for this type of work there is no doubt that you can do it yourself quite cheaply, but if you don't (or don't have the skills), you rely on the industry.   The vast majority of the public have neither the time nor the skills which is where MCS is supposed to help.

 

That said when it comes to replacing the unit in hopefully 15 or 20 years time, that seems to me like an easy and relatively quick DiY job.

[JohnMo]

10 minutes ago, JamesPa said:

took 6 long man days for a diligent contractor to do my retrofit

But isn't the OP a new build, UFH only on ground floor. So 6kW and below heat pump, 22mm pipe from ASHP to high kvs 3 port diverter, to cylinder and UFH manifold. Return pipes tee back together, decent low pressure drop filter (not a Y strainer or ball valve strainer), expansion vessel and PRV. Add a few isolation valves and drain point, fill with inhibited water, job done. Wouldn't even bother with anti freeze valves.

[HughF]

25 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

But isn't the OP a new build, UFH only on ground floor. So 6kW and below heat pump, 22mm pipe from ASHP to high kvs 3 port diverter, to cylinder and UFH manifold. Return pipes tee back together, decent low pressure drop filter (not a Y strainer or ball valve strainer), expansion vessel and PRV. Add a few isolation valves and drain point, fill with inhibited water, job done. Wouldn't even bother with anti freeze valves.

Yeah, this….

[SimonD]

23 hours ago, JamesPa said:

Is there no requirement for CPD in the industry so that trainig remains up to date?

 

Only the mandatory 5 year renewal, but that doesn't govern the update and delivery of the training, which is where I've fed back to some organisations that there's a real need to rewrite and restructure the training itself.

23 hours ago, JamesPa said:

Something needs to be done urgently otherwise the domestic heat pump industry in the UK, and thus the UK attempts to decarbonise its heating system, is toast.

 

23 hours ago, JamesPa said:

Is there any hope that things will change radically and soon?  Is anyone in the industry campaigning?  Government cant be expected to know what the problems are because the industry associations and in particular MCS will be painting a rosy picture of how standards are being raised.  The impetus needs to come for the good guys in the industry who need to call out the problems and propose solutions to Government!

 

Things are happening. It's just that the nay sayers are doing all the shouting much louder than anyone else. I get it too. I was round a customer's house to quote for a replacement DHW cylinder and to convert it to unvented. The customer asked me whether it wasn't just better to put in a combi. So we went into a long conversation about how that would be a bad idea as it's a 4 bed house with several ensuites. I also mentioned future proofing for a heat pump which was followed by a shout from the kitchen by the customer's wife that she hates heat pumps. Needless to say I left and decided not to quote for this particular job! This week I've been asked by half a dozen customers about whether heat pumps actually work and how big the radiators have to be.

 

So yes, there's an uphill battle still to be done.

 

Things are happening, but with the size of the industry it's taking time.

 

1st we've got more and better training out there like Heat Geek and Kimbo, etc. 

 

2nd we've got regional development going on. For example, I have been funded to the tune of about £1600 in by West of England Combined Authority as part of its move towards decarbonising. And yes, it is also experiencing intertia in the industry. I have given feedback into the programme suggesting they need to modify the training and mentoring available and how it's both run and delivered and I'm currently waiting on a response about funding my time to provide more detailed input to this as I've got a lot of experience in training & development and mentoring from my previous professional background. So we'll see what happens here. They appear to be listening

 

3rd MCS did make so changes to registration and training requirements to separate design from installation, which in practise I think is a good thing but has had some unintended consequences - which I haven't got the time to go into right now as I've got to go and prep for the installation of about 13 rads this week.

 

4th NESTA has organised a scheme for new heat pump installers called Start at Home where installers get a free heat pump using the BUS grant to install a heat pump in there homw and use it for either MCS registration assessment and as a sales tool for new customers. This comes with umbrella scheme and manufacturer support.

 

5th The price relationship between getting a heat pump installed versus a new system boiler with unvented cylinder is getting very close to make it financially viable to go in the direction of a heat pump (obviously with the BUS grant) and with suppliers providing heat pump tariffs etc. I think people with cotton on. 

 

6th There are still lots of positive stories out there. I was just listening to a talk bu the CEO of Octopus Energy which I thought was very optimistic - 

 

 

I don't think it's all doom and gloom, but there are challenges to overcome/iron out.

 

 

Edited 15 hours ago by SimonD

[JamesPa]

@SimonD  Thanks for taking the time to reply and for setting out whats happening in the industry.

 

I should say that I am very satisfied with my heat pump installation, its way more comfortable than my gas boiler (which was <15 years old) ever was, costs less to run (which I wasnt necessarily expecting), is low carbon and can do some light cooling where I have fan radiators.  The DHW is also much better, I swapped a vented tank plus two noisy pumps for unvented, and the improvement is material. 

 

However I am rather conscious that I start with a degree in physics so have a reasonable chance of understanding the system, did 2 years of learning about the topic and due diligence on suppliers, plotted 2 years worth of half hourly gas data to establish the loss, and was very selective (and fairly prescriptive) with installers on what I wanted.  That said I must admit that 2 out of the perhaps 12 installers I contacted did propose the right system at a sensible price without significant prompting from me and indeed positively contributed to the thinking.  Still there was a strong filtering out of the chaff.  Most consumers wont have the enthusiasm or knowledge to do this!

 

The nay sayers will shout louder, they are directly or indirectly self-interested in doing so.  'Old-time' plumbers don't want to change and some may even be scared, much of the media has adopted an anti-green agenda in support of their masters, boiler manufacturers and manufacturers of smart (but largely irrelevant) controls don't want to go out of business, and the fossil industry is doubtless helping them all in the background.  Then of course you have to factor in that many people are generally resistant to change.  Even a 5% failure rate will lead to scare stories which will be leapt on and amplified by those in whose interests it is to do so, and if those 5% aren't rectified, then in a sense its fair to do so.  This means that the heat pump industry needs to be virtually unimpeachable

 

It is possible to change the narrative, the media seem to have become much less negative about electric cars, presumably because they have realised that the people who buy them generally love them and of course because the EV industry consistently produces good products.  Still I was told the other day that mine might explode (which indeed it might, as might a fossil car, or indeed more or less anything that stores 60+kWh of energy in a very small space and gets mangled occasionally in a crash), but this seems to occur less often.  Lets hope that the heat pump industry can go the same way so that we can all enjoy better, greener and probably cheaper heating.

Edited 9 hours ago by JamesPa