MBC timber frame delivered successfully

[G and J]

2 hours ago, Mr Punter said:

Paying part by credit card could give some added protection

 

Insisted deposit being paid on cc. Relatively short timescales between final payment and delivery so 🤞.

 

So far co. Have been great to deal with, did a lot of pre- work with us even before order.

Edited 19 hours ago by G and J
Ps. Air tightness fairly and squarely down to us.

[Nickfromwales]

55 minutes ago, Iceverge said:

 

I'd have thought the opposite, certainly financially.

 

No massive deposit to be paid up front with stick build and you could avoid a crane too if you were able to lift a few timbers 

My eyes were opened to just how good a job you can do with 'stick' building methods.

 

Currently on a PH where the carpenter just ordered materials to site and plodded on screwing one bit to the next. No access for a crane or anything bigger than a family car (a narrow one at that).

 

You'd struggle to tell it apart from another I-beam or Larson-trussed type residence from a turnkey supplier and erector that craned in the house in prefabricated sections.

[Gus Potter]

1 hour ago, Nickfromwales said:

My eyes were opened to just how good a job you can do with 'stick' building methods.

What a great post Nick. I spent the first 20 years of my carear stick building TF's before I became a designer. 

 

To knock up TF studs on site you need to set up a good saw bench. We used to make one from timbers that suited 4.8 and 6.0 m timber lengths. The chop saw (a top quality one and expensive) got mounted each day on the bench and taken home at night. To cut all the stud lengths / noggings you use stops / marks on the bench. The other main tools were a passlode nail gun for the 90mm long framing nails and I used a air driven nail gun with a compressor for nailing the sheeting when making the panels on the ground for the first floors. For two story houses you adapt the panels to make them manually liftable.. and as you say no need for a crane!

 

I work with a lot of builders (do the TF panel drawings) and we use this method as they win jobs! It's not just that they win jobs.. they get less hassle as they have much more control over the process / delivery and that leads to management savings and that less hassle makes them more competetive. The more competetive they are the more bread and butter work flows my way.

 

1 hour ago, Nickfromwales said:

You'd struggle to tell it apart from another I-beam or Larson-trussed type residence from a turnkey supplier and erector that craned in the house in prefabricated sections.

Yes you do, in fact you can often achieve a better build as you can account for the variation in the underbuilding and things being off the square.

 

The savings can be significant in terms of buying the timber. I understand that @saveasteading has done a deal with a merchant to basically buy a pallet /s or so of timber off the boat.. cutting out many of the middle men.

 

Ok set that advantage aside. As a self builder cash flow is everything at times. Stick building can smooth the cash flow way.

1 hour ago, Nickfromwales said:

You'd struggle to tell it apart from another I-beam or Larson-trussed type

Yes agree.

 

Larsen trusses as well can be knocked up on site. You can do it the slow way using nail plates from say Tool Station or the quick way using ply gussets nailed with a nail gun. You can also make the Larsen trusses bear on the edge of a raft foundation with a bit of diagonal bracing. Again here an experienced joiner will "smooth" out any minor dimensional errors that may have manifested in the underbuilding. A TF fabircator cuts you no slack in this respect, they are not that flexible if you get your found a bit off the square or level or want to move a window or door late in the day.

 

First the upsides..

 

1/ You don't have to stump up a big wad of cash up front and hope the TF turns up when you hope it will.  You pay for the timber and once it is on site it belongs to you. Then you look after it, dry it slowly until you are ready to use it.. this reduces the shrinkage and cracking you get later on, that has hidden cost benefit.

 

2/ You don't have to worry about the TF company going bust.

 

3/ Self building should be an exciting journey, at times you change you mind.. well quite often. Stick building is much more flexible in this respect.

 

4/ If you can find the right joiner to do the TF then they will often introduce you to all their pals who do all the other trades.

 

Down sides..

 

5/ You need someone to do a TF panel drawing and coordinate the main services that might clash with the TF. I do this as an SE / Designer / Ex builder.. but it comes at a cost.. it's a fair bit of work to think it all through, there is no getting away from this cost unless you are able to design and draw a timber frame with the panel drawings and connections economically..

 

That's it for now but hopefully you can see how I think @Nick and I may be singing off the same page. Mind you we don't always agree at times!

 

In summary. I would always want to compare a manufactured frame with a stick build for domestic one off jobs. Don't forget that we are doing one off builds (extensions or houses) the TF manufactures need to sell mass market to known and big spending Clients who they work with day in and day out. They have invested millions of pound in ther factories.. your self build / extension is the cream on the cake profit wise. Where they really make their money is selling you insulation and the "service" etc.

 

Now if you look at @Nickfromwales.. it seems to me that here is someone with loads of experience who may have something to offer.. I suggest PM him?

 

 

 

Edited 15 hours ago by Gus Potter

[G and J]

My (me being G, the more mature, considered and sensible posts are by J) ‘do everything myself’ OCD thing would have loved to have stick built from delivered timber, but there’s two of us to consider, and I’d prefer to finish in less than forever.  
 

So I’m hoping that very experienced joiners with me adding in the bits needed for airtightness will result in a good build.

 

If I’d managed to find a company to quote on a supply and erect we probably would have gone that way.  Fingers crossed.

[Gus Potter]

9 minutes ago, G and J said:

My (me being G, the more mature, considered and sensible posts are by J) ‘do everything myself’ OCD thing would have loved to have stick built from delivered timber, but there’s two of us to consider, and I’d prefer to finish in less than forever.  
 

So I’m hoping that very experienced joiners with me adding in the bits needed for airtightness will result in a good build.

 

If I’d managed to find a company to quote on a supply and erect we probably would have gone that way.  Fingers crossed.

Your comments are valid. When I was a building contractor.. to provide a bit of context. I employed  7 - 8 men full time and many of them were long standing and loyal.. but I paid them well. I also pulled in sub contractors. Depending on the seasons I could have my core guys and then up to 20 folk working.. but I was still small fry, just a local rural builder (Scottish Borders) that had contacts.

 

But make no mistake.. I could have bought in a TF from say the modern equivalent of MBC, Pascills et all for one off jobs but the service was not that great, maybe because they view self builders as a one off and generally inexperienced Clients. They add an extra profit margin.

 

For all.. when I was a builder I could have knocked up a TF on site faster than saying going to a TF company, many of the builders I now work with do so I was not that special!

 

I made that happen by starting the kit as the brickies were putting in the under building. The great thing is that all the guys worked together so the joiners on the TF would check the brickies work and eat their lunch together in the site hut. Sometimes if the roof was simple we would get prefabricated roof trusses and make sure they fitted on the walls. Some of the kit roof designs I see on BH are just not suited for the prefabricated application and I can see that a stick built roof is the best and most economic solution.

 

I can be done this stick build thing and often more smoothly and in you time frame! 

 

But for all on BH the main barrier to this is that you often don't get the right design team in place and spend enough on professional fees and taking advantage of their contacts and are willing to pay for a few panel drawings for what is a one off project.

 

The thing that irks me is that folk expect Builders to price jobs for free. Sometimes I say to the builders I work with when we have say a tricky renovation / refurb job.. hey the Client will pay you to sit down and work out a real price!

 

 

[saveasteading]

1 hour ago, Gus Potter said:

@saveasteading has done a deal with a merchant to basically buy a pallet /s or so of timber off the boat.. cutting out many of the middle men

Not quite. The middle man remains. But the point is to take a whole bundle of 1m2 x the length. It needs very little handling so the merchant can look at it as ' a thing' with a single markup.

Guessing here.... buys 6m3 of timber for £2,000, add transport £100, adds profit £300. 

Compare that £300 to handling at the depot then manhandling small quantities.

 

The first time I thought of this. 2 x 2 battens in 6m lengths, the BM manager surprised himself with the price he could offer if worked back to £/m.

 

But do you need that much of a particular section in that length?

will 4.5m or 6m be more efficient in waste avoidance?

We will overdesign some elements in order that we use it, so that has a cost.

[Iceverge]

10 hours ago, saveasteading said:

But do you need that much of a particular section in that length?

 

Yes, for future projects! 

 

I hope to be still hammering nails into timber until the day that I get the call summoning me through the pearly gates. 

 

"Clear off", I'll tell 'em.... 

 

"I don't want your paradise, I'm having too much fun here".