Roof overhang and permitted development (larger home extension prior approval)

[Sunil237]

Hi all,

 

I have a prior approval for a larger extension on a detached house. The extension has been built to 5.7m (to rear wall face) with an overhanging flat roof of 1 meter. The architect put in for a 6m extension as they believed the roof doesn't count towards the request. We should have gone to 8m for more coverage and are kicking ourselves for not!

The neighbour did object the application, and the planning officer found zero issue in approving the application.

 

Anyway within a week of the roof being on the neighbour has called the council (I assume) and the person who came to see said the overhang counts towards the limit as it's not a normal size, so we are 70cm over. I am expecting a letter/email from the planning dept soon.

 

So far my research has led me to this technical guidance for permitted development and looking at A, G, ii 

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/permitted-development-rights-for-householders-technical-guidance/permitted-development-rights-for-householders-technical-guidance#other-classes-under-part-1

 

It says "Measurement of the extension beyond the rear wall should be made from the base of the rear wall of the original house to the outer edge of the wall of the extension (not including any guttering or barge boards)." And has this nice little picture

 

 

Is my understanding correct and are we safe or should I be worried and what would be the next best steps?

 

Thanks!

[Big Jimbo]

My own thoughts are that, I would do nothing, and if planning come back to you, show them the picture above, and wave goodbye.

[DevilDamo]

Have you built in accordance with the Prior Approval drawings?

[Sunil237]

14 hours ago, DevilDamo said:

Have you built in accordance with the Prior Approval drawings?

No drawing was supplied as it was prior approval for a larger home extension, classing it as permitted development.

The application stated: "Erection of single storey rear extension extending beyond the rear wall of the original house by 6.00m, with a maximum height of 3.40m, and height to the eaves of 3.20m"

There was a neighbourhood consultation as there was a comment made but the conclusion is below

"Conclusion On the basis of the above assessment, the Prior Approval of the LPA is therefore not required. The proposed single storey rear extension will comply with the relevant conditions and limitations of the Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development Order) (England) 2015 (as amended) Schedule 2, Part 1, Class A and qualifies as ‘permitted development’."

 

The only drawing submitted was the blockplan which shows the build out to 6m.

 

@Big Jimbo thanks, I will definitely wait to hear back rather than force the matter. Just want some peace of mind and to be prepared as the fee for a retrospective application (if it gets that far) is going up by £300 in April

[DevilDamo]

If the PA application stated a depth of 6m and you have built 5.7m, then you have not built in accordance with the PA decision. PA applications are like an MOT and if you deviate from what has been approved, then you are technically in breach of that document.
 

It does worry me that a LPA can confirm a proposal meets Class A without seeing proposed plans and elevations drawings. Normally, LPA’s will advise that submitting a CoL after a successful PA application is the full belt and braces approach. Unless their decision does refer to an optional CoL application?

[Big Jimbo]

@DevilDamo Previously, when I applied for a NCS rear extension, I just stated "Up to 8 meters" If any of the neighbours had a problem they could have brought it up with the council. 

[DevilDamo]

@Big Jimbo The form asks for a measurement in metres. Did you just write "up to 8m" in that box?

 

I still think the PA process is ridiculous as a lot of applications I have seen would not meet Class A. Only some LPA's are checking all the Class A requirements with PA applications.

[Big Jimbo]

yep, just wrote up to 8 meters.

[Sunil237]

10 hours ago, DevilDamo said:

If the PA application stated a depth of 6m and you have built 5.7m, then you have not built in accordance with the PA decision. PA applications are like an MOT and if you deviate from what has been approved, then you are technically in breach of that document.
 

It does worry me that a LPA can confirm a proposal meets Class A without seeing proposed plans and elevations drawings. Normally, LPA’s will advise that submitting a CoL after a successful PA application is the full belt and braces approach. Unless their decision does refer to an optional CoL application?

 

They don't have an issue with the build being smaller, it's safe to assume a smaller extension has less impact on amenities of neighbours so they use discretion to not pursue that

 

I don't know what you mean by "optional CoL" sorry

 

I have seen that some LPAs ask to see elevations and also roof plans for more information but mine only asked for a location and block plan. Would a block plan typically only show the outline of a building brickwork or do they tend to include the facia and guttering?

[Sunil237]

5 hours ago, Big Jimbo said:

yep, just wrote up to 8 meters.

Wish I did that! 

[DevilDamo]

The reduced depth “could” come up in the future should you come to sell. Not so much that having a smaller extension would be refused but more so the paperwork aligns with what has been built.

 

A CoL is a Certificate of Lawfulness.

 

What you had submitted to accompany the PA application was fine. I just don’t know how from a location and block plan that the LPA can check it meets all the Class A requirements.

 

A block plan would normally indicate the external walls.

[kandgmitchell]

2 hours ago, DevilDamo said:

I just don’t know how from a location and block plan that the LPA can check it meets all the Class A requirements.

I suspect that many council's do not want to check the extension meets all the other requirements as they see it as tantamount to a CoL shortcut. They only want to carry out the adjoining neighbour checks and leave it to the applicant to be certain it meets any other restrictions.

[DevilDamo]

22 hours ago, kandgmitchell said:

I suspect that many council's do not want to check the extension meets all the other requirements as they see it as tantamount to a CoL shortcut. They only want to carry out the adjoining neighbour checks and leave it to the applicant to be certain it meets any other restrictions.

Absolutely. A lot of people don’t realise that the PA process is not confirmation that the proposals meet all the Class A requirements. I just think about the time they come to sell and it’s flagged up then. A PA application should in my opinion always be followed by a LDC application. Some LPA’s are checking all the requirements as part of the PA process, but not all. 

[SBMS]

3 minutes ago, DevilDamo said:

Absolutely. A lot of people don’t realise that the PA process is not confirmation that the proposals meet all the Class A requirements. I just think about the time they come to sell and it’s flagged up then. A PA application should in my opinion always be followed by a LDC application. Some LPA’s are checking all the requirements as part of the PA process, but not all. 

Out of interest, at what point can you apply for prior approval and LDC? We plan on adding an extension (under PD, but using prior approval as it is 8m at rear) to our self build once we are at wind and watertight stage. That is typically the stage our LPA accept PD rights become available. But can we put in the application for prior approval and the LDC prior to this? And then start work immediately once the building is substantially complete?

Edited February 22 by SBMS

[DevilDamo]

4 hours ago, SBMS said:

Out of interest, at what point can you apply for prior approval and LDC? We plan on adding an extension (under PD, but using prior approval as it is 8m at rear) to our self build once we are at wind and watertight stage. That is typically the stage our LPA accept PD rights become available. But can we put in the application for prior approval and the LDC prior to this? And then start work immediately once the building is substantially complete?

PA applications have to be submitted prior to a LDC application. PA has to be submitted prior to works starting. The LDC can be applied before, during or after the works.

[SBMS]

2 hours ago, DevilDamo said:

PA applications have to be submitted prior to a LDC application. PA has to be submitted prior to works starting. The LDC can be applied before, during or after the works.

So a property doesn't need to have actually been finished in order to submit the prior approval related to an extension under Permitted Development?

[DevilDamo]

7 hours ago, SBMS said:

So a property doesn't need to have actually been finished in order to submit the prior approval related to an extension under Permitted Development?

A PA application needs to be submitted “before” works start. It’s the LDC application that can be submitted after. 

[SBMS]

8 hours ago, DevilDamo said:

A PA application needs to be submitted “before” works start. It’s the LDC application that can be submitted after. 

Sorry @DevilDamo - I get that sequencing but wasn’t what I was asking. Say I am building a new house. It’s not yet wind and watertight, but I have an intention to add a rear extension under a PA application. When can that PA application be submitted? Do you have to wait till the house is finished? I know that you can only start the works under PD once the house is substantially complete, but can you put in a PA if the house is not?

[DevilDamo]

9 hours ago, SBMS said:

Sorry @DevilDamo - I get that sequencing but wasn’t what I was asking. Say I am building a new house. It’s not yet wind and watertight, but I have an intention to add a rear extension under a PA application. When can that PA application be submitted? Do you have to wait till the house is finished? I know that you can only start the works under PD once the house is substantially complete, but can you put in a PA if the house is not?

PD along with PA applications can only be implemented upon substantial completion of the dwelling and is usually Building Regulation sign off.

[SBMS]

1 hour ago, DevilDamo said:

PD along with PA applications can only be implemented upon substantial completion of the dwelling and is usually Building Regulation sign off.

Understood re implemented upon substantial completion.. is there this same requirement for application though? Ie house must be substantially complete at the time of application?

[DevilDamo]

9 hours ago, SBMS said:

Understood re implemented upon substantial completion.. is there this same requirement for application though? Ie house must be substantially complete at the time of application?

Correct. You cannot apply for PD alterations without PD being available, which is upon substantial completion of the build.

[Sunil237]

Hi all,

An unfortunate update! Help requested.

 

The council have responded to say this is an issue and have asked us to either remove part of the roof that's been built or  put in a homeowners application for retrospective approval. Details below of why they are staying the 1m roof overhang should be counted into the measurement... 

 

We had approval for 6m. The wall is out to 5.7 and the overhang brings it to 6.7. although the council see no issue if we built to 6m and had a 30cm facias/soffit.

 

Council explanation;

"I would agree that the provision of a slight overhang to form a soffit or fascia would be considered a de minimis protrusion for the purposes of measuring a Class A extension. However, I cannot agree that the overhang in this instance can be considered slight, minor or de minimis. The roof oversails the extension by 1 metre and is not considered necessary to accommodate finishing materials or guttering etc. Page 4 of the Technical Guidance makes it clear that “given the very substantial variations in the design of individual houses, this guide cannot cover all possible situations that may arise” and does not specifically address the matter of roof oversails"

 

Essentially, based on whoever id judging they can make up any rule according to the line stated on page 4. 

 

My architect used the points discussed in the first post but the council didn't budge. Additionally they said we need an application to cover the whole build and not just the roof as the roof forms part of the extension and that means the whole extension is not permitted. 

 

I've asked my good neighbour to submit a positive comment when the notice comes through.

 

I had reviewed the councils guidance on planning enforcement (https://www.charnwood.gov.uk/files/documents/enforcment_policy/CBC Enforcement Plan May 2024.pdf) and i am struggling to see how their actions can be justified based on their "harm" scoring (page8) of my additional 0.5m overhang.

 

Any advise would be appreciated, and any experience in requesting fit a different planning officer to review

 

Thanks

Edited Friday at 19:08 by Sunil237