Stuart turner Trent ClydeCharger MJ2

[Nickfromwales]

1 hour ago, John Carroll said:

 

I only saw this photo today.

 

Can you switch off the pump and open a few taps to give a good flow ~ 15LPM and note the two pressures, switch on the pump and note the pressures again, shut the taps and note the pressures as the pump stops.

Also check to see where the pump discharge (outlet) pipe is teed in to the system.

Would need have the accumulator isolated at the local lever valve too to do this    
Be good to see some dynamic numbers by doing this, but it will all point back to adding capacity.

 

Not sure if the ST manufacturers installation guidelines call for that PRedV but doubt it can be tweaked up any further. Prob there to mitigate a bit of the hammer from pump stop / start too. 

[John Carroll]

14 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

Would need have the accumulator isolated at the local lever valve too to do this    
Be good to see some dynamic numbers by doing this, but it will all point back to adding capacity.

 

Not sure if the ST manufacturers installation guidelines call for that PRedV but doubt it can be tweaked up any further. Prob there to mitigate a bit of the hammer from pump stop / start too. 

Presume the pump discharge is teed in above this PRV, otherwise the accumulator will only run at 1.5bar, useless, with a precharge pressure of 1.4/1.5bar?., where would/should a check valve be installed?.

[Nickfromwales]

16 hours ago, John Carroll said:

Presume the pump discharge is teed in above this PRV, otherwise the accumulator will only run at 1.5bar, useless, with a precharge pressure of 1.4/1.5bar?., where would/should a check valve be installed?.

Check valve usually before the control group and PRedV, on the incoming cold mains, but it’s down to how far the whole of house plumbing was picked apart tbh.

 

Cold mains should have been intercepted immediately after the stopcock at ground floor, then that should have been taken uninterrupted up to the pump / etc, then the ‘new’ house cold supply after pump / etc then gets fed back into the house by tee’ing it in upstairs; this how it needs to be done, so the whole house is balanced.

 

People rarely install this type of kit 100% kosher unfortunately. Happy when I’m proven wrong though, of course! 

Edited February 20 by Nickfromwales
More info

[texas]

ok thanks will do this today. 

 

cheers

 

[texas]

The circumference is 169 cm 

The height is 150 cm

I turned off the pump 

Opened 2 taps to drain about 15 mins of water and it was lacking pressure. 

 

The 2 analogue dials didnt move. I think they are broken. 

 

I then left taps running and turned pump on at 15.12 

I then after 1 minute turned taps off. 

 

at 15.49 ie 37 mins later it reached 2.2 and turned off. 

 

I will attach a video to try to explain what is up there regarding any valve top (which i cant see) and a question regarding where my hot water is stored. 

 

Thanks

 

[texas]

 

 

[texas]

[texas]

[texas]

[texas]

[texas]

Hi It wouldn’t let me send a video 

but I’ve added some pics 

I am not sure how to work out where the outlet goes? And I can’t see any valve or guage on top of the tank. 
 

as an aside the horizontal tank I believe is my immersion tank. Is it also where my regular hot water is stored when I don’t use the immersion (which I almost never do) 

 

 

thanks 

[John Carroll]

59 minutes ago, texas said:

The circumference is 169 cm 

The height is 150 cm

I turned off the pump 

Opened 2 taps to drain about 15 mins of water and it was lacking pressure. 

 

The 2 analogue dials didnt move. I think they are broken. 

 

I then left taps running and turned pump on at 15.12 

I then after 1 minute turned taps off. 

 

at 15.49 ie 37 mins later it reached 2.2 and turned off. 

 

I will attach a video to try to explain what is up there regarding any valve top (which i cant see) and a question regarding where my hot water is stored. 

 

Thanks

 

 

 

I estimate that you have a 300L accumulator, 

 

A precharge pressure of 1.4 bar and a charged pressure of 2.2bar will give a available accumulator vol of 75L, two taps running for 15 mins to use up this 75L gives a combined flowrate of 5.0LPM, (not a lot).

It took the pump 37 minutes to recharge the accumulator with, theoretically, 75L, gives a pump flow rate of 2.03LPM, no good.

Have you any idea of the flowrate from those two taps before the flow rate fell off.

 

 

Its very difficult to tell whats happening without a accurate schematic of the pipework.

 

You will see a round plastic dust cap right on the very top of the accumulator, unscrew or prise this off and you should see a  (schrader) valve exactly like your car tyre valve, you require a tyre type pressure gauge to check this pressure with the accumulator fully drained. Before considering doing this, or getting it done, with the pump running and no water demand, press down the (schrader) valve pin with your finger nail, if air comes out, diaphragm OK, if water comes out for more than a few seconds then diaphragm knackered.

[texas]

1 hour ago, John Carroll said:

Have you any idea of the flowrate from those two taps before the flow rate fell off.

 

I dont have any specific data but it is powerful when its working. 

 

Re the valve pump pressure. I have a car tyre inflator? Will this give a reading? 

 

What are your opinions on putting the Dab System up there? Do you think a loft can handle the weight? 

 

As ever many thanks for your time 

 

[texas]

DAB ESYBOX Twin Pump Booster Set Complete with ESYDOCK 240 | Complete Pump Supplies

 

DAB ESYBOX and ESYTANK Cold Water Booster Set and Tank | Complete Pump Supplies

these are 2 i have looked at. I cant fathom out how the first one works as there seems to be no tank or anything? 

 

 

[Nickfromwales]

These as is would not solve the problem, just a beefed up version of what you already have. The first says:

• Optional Integrated modular water storage tank system

This refers to the 'break tanks' I was talking about a bunch of posts back. Basically they're saying scale the system by design, and add a break tank or tanks to match the demand; if the cold mains can't cope with peak demand.

 

Second says:

• ESYTANK has a 480 Litre maximum working volume per tank

So add 480kg plus the weight of the pump set to the static weight-load up there.

 

Honestly, you just need to add a second (300?) litre accumulator and the problem will be solved, personally I'd go to 500L for the little extra money.

 

The pump is going for a crazy long time too, but I guess this was commissioned to not create a negative deficit on the incoming cold mains supply. @texas, do you know if there are any cold taps in the house that come off the cold mains before the pump set and accumulator? Or did they do the job properly and divert the incoming cold mains, in 22mm pipework, straight to the pump set? All hot and cold feeds to the house, bar the kitchen sink for human consumption, should be after the pump and acc'r.

 

Getting to be a bit of a storm in a tea cup here now, tbh.....  

 

[texas]

3 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

Honestly, you just need to add a second (300?) litre accumulator and the problem will be solved, personally I'd go to 500L for the little extra money.

Hi so if i add another similar system it can fit side by side? Does adding another accumulator of 300/500 litres not add 300/500 litres of weight the same as the ESYTANK with 480 litres of volume? 

 

3 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

The pump is going for a crazy long time too, but I guess this was commissioned to not create a negative deficit on the incoming cold mains supply. @texas, do you know if there are any cold taps in the house that come off the cold mains before the pump set and accumulator? Or did they do the job properly and divert the incoming cold mains, in 22mm pipework, straight to the pump set? All hot and cold feeds to the house, bar the kitchen sink for human consumption, should be after the pump and acc'r.

Im not sure how to test this? But i bought the house off a developer who developed an 1850s building. When i moved in the pressure was weak so he fitted the tank and the pump afterwards. I am not sure if this answers the question? 

 

thank you for your reply 

[John Carroll]

Suggest cleaning the Y strainer and removing the two pressure gauges, (ensure they then read  zero pressure) ensure tapping points clear then replace them.

With pump off run a "high" flow hot tap only,  like a bath tap, if installed, run the hot tap into a bucket/container for exactly 30 secs, measure with a 1 litre milk bottle or whatever, X by 2 to give the flow rate in LPM, note the two pressure gauge readings before and during test. Then start pump with tap still open, throttle the tap flow until the pump pressure is close to 2.0bar, then again note repeat the flow measurements,  again note the two pressure gauge readings before and during test. That should/might  give enough information on how to proceed.

[John Carroll]

Try and do this please

 

 

 

.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Typical Pumped Installation below

 

 

Edited February 22 by John Carroll

[texas]

The next 3 pictures show the route of the pipe nearest to me. 

[texas]

The next 3 pics show the line of the pipe furthest from me 

 

I’ve added red and blue lines the blue is when one part seems to fork off into different directions 

 

thanks 

[John Carroll]

Thanks, did/can you do the pressure gauge checks and the flow rests.

[Nickfromwales]

15 hours ago, texas said:

Hi so if i add another similar system it can fit side by side? Does adding another accumulator of 300/500 litres not add 300/500 litres of weight the same as the ESYTANK with 480 litres of volume? 

 

Im not sure how to test this? But i bought the house off a developer who developed an 1850s building. When i moved in the pressure was weak so he fitted the tank and the pump afterwards. I am not sure if this answers the question? 

 

thank you for your reply 

Yes, you’d be adding more weight, but my suggestion is the correct solution (to add capacity) and will have a positive outcome; eg add the second accumulator (not more or bigger pumps!).

 

If you read back where I first suggest this, I mentioned mounting the second vessel on a wall mounted bracket, if the floor can’t take the weight. Basically like beefed up gallows brackets. You can also cantilever(?) between a fixing point on the external wall and then a platform that spans over 3 or more joists to spread the load. Are there any structural wall underneath anywhere that you can ‘straddle’?

I’ve done that a number of times, I just went and found a steel stockist and asked them to fabricate a pair of BFO shelf brackets out of box section steel, my local place has a chap who does this quietly for a bit of cash from off cuts, and last pair only cost me £40. They were 1500mm long, with tabs to the left and right for fixing back to the masonry. The legs that the cylinder sat on were about 750mm long. You just span between those with a few cut lengths of 40x40 uni strut and sit the vessel on that.

You can fortify the existing timber work if there’s no masonry wall, I only do solutions vs problems lol.  
 

Have you confirmed if the cold mains can / cannot be improved? The local water authority have a duty to provide you with a minimum flow rate, if they’re significantly under that they’d have to do something about it. If the issue is with your supply pipe from the boundary to the stopcock, dented or full of crud, then that’s on you. 
 

It would be the best long term solution to get the supply sorted out, have you explored this at all? 

[texas]

6 hours ago, John Carroll said:

Thanks, did/can you do the pressure gauge checks and the flow rests.

i haven't yet i'm a bit unsure what to do.

[texas]

8 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

Yes, you’d be adding more weight, but my suggestion is the correct solution (to add capacity) and will have a positive outcome; eg add the second accumulator (not more or bigger pumps!).

 

If you read back where I first suggest this, I mentioned mounting the second vessel on a wall mounted bracket, if the floor can’t take the weight. Basically like beefed up gallows brackets. You can also cantilever(?) between a fixing point on the external wall and then a platform that spans over 3 or more joists to spread the load. Are there any structural wall underneath anywhere that you can ‘straddle’?

I’ve done that a number of times, I just went and found a steel stockist and asked them to fabricate a pair of BFO shelf brackets out of box section steel, my local place has a chap who does this quietly for a bit of cash from off cuts, and last pair only cost me £40. They were 1500mm long, with tabs to the left and right for fixing back to the masonry. The legs that the cylinder sat on were about 750mm long. You just span between those with a few cut lengths of 40x40 uni strut and sit the vessel on that.

You can fortify the existing timber work if there’s no masonry wall, I only do solutions vs problems lol.  
 

Have you confirmed if the cold mains can / cannot be improved? The local water authority have a duty to provide you with a minimum flow rate, if they’re significantly under that they’d have to do something about it. If the issue is with your supply pipe from the boundary to the stopcock, dented or full of crud, then that’s on you. 
 

It would be the best long term solution to get the supply sorted out, have you explored this at all? 

Hi yes i had an independent plumber come round a few years ago who tested it all out and he claimed that the pressure into the house was above the satisfactory level that is required. Everyone says that the main issues is that the boiler and everything is in the loft. But we are hamstrung.

 

I am going to explore with a plumber the option of fitting another pump and tank as you say to double the capacity. I will ask him for direction on best place. I think we have limited options but i l like your wall idea.

 

Thank you very much everyone. 

[John Carroll]

9 hours ago, texas said:

Hi yes i had an independent plumber come round a few years ago who tested it all out and he claimed that the pressure into the house was above the satisfactory level that is required. Everyone says that the main issues is that the boiler and everything is in the loft. But we are hamstrung.

 

I am going to explore with a plumber the option of fitting another pump and tank as you say to double the capacity. I will ask him for direction on best place. I think we have limited options but i l like your wall idea.

 

Thank you very much everyone. 

I think its vital, before making any decisions, to get as much data as possible, expecially those two pressure gauge readings, more importantly, the lower one to see what the pump suction pressure is, its no good installing a second accumulator if the mains cannot supply the minimum pump suction head required. Would suggest getting you'r plumber to get these gauges "working" and clean the Y strainer.

 

As stated previously, 1.5bar/2.2bar precharge/charged pressures will give a (300L) accumulator output of 65.63L (present output?), if the charged pressure was at its design of 3.0bar then you will get a increase of over 71% to 112.5L, it might/would require a new charging pump but a charged pressure of 3.5bar will give a increase of over 100% to 133.3L and 4.0bar will give over 128% increase to 150L, as much as adding another 300L accumulator with a charging pressure of (both) of 2.33bar.

Edited February 23 by John Carroll