Can 100mm block walls be built on top of beam and block

[Boyblue]

I know that walls can be ran parrellel with double beams handling the load but what about if the wall is running parpendicular to the floor beams?  Need there be any special provision for standard, 100mm concrete blocks?

Edited Tuesday at 14:29 by Boyblue

[Nickfromwales]

6 minutes ago, Boyblue said:

I know that walls can be ran parrellel with double beams handling the load but what about if the wall is running parpendicular to the floor beams?  Need there be any special provision for standard, 100mm concrete blocks?

Usually not, but the SE or designer should have already detailed this off the plans? 
Why not use stud partitions instead of masonry blockwork? Studs can be used for load bearing applications with ease. 

[saveasteading]

As @Nickfromwalessays.

 

A block in beam and block can crack but not budge, and nobody knows ad nothing happens. BUT you wouldn't want a heavy, especially loadbearing, wall on it 

Timber stud floor plates will spread the load. masonry walls would best have some reinforcement .

BUT most of all, has the floor as a whole got the capacity for this extra load? 

[Canski]

only if it is supported from below i.e. sleeper wall. Unless your SE calcs and passes it. There is a lot of load in a 100 mm concrete wall and it sounds like it hasn't been allowed for when they designed the beams. How about stud ?

[Nickfromwales]

7 minutes ago, Canski said:

How about stud ?

I’m fine, thanks for asking. You? 

[Boyblue]

12 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

Usually not, but the SE or designer should have already detailed this off the plans? 
Why not use stud partitions instead of masonry blockwork? Studs can be used for load bearing applications with ease. 

My qusetions are all conceptual,  you're so right but apparently Bahamians have a love affair with concrete blocks, even low cost homes spec blocks.  Funny thing is nicer homes do use wood and metal studs.

[saveasteading]

3 minutes ago, Boyblue said:

My questions are all conceptual

No problem, but please introduce future queries with that proviso.  it stops us going into panic 'don't do it' mode,  which some queries need.

[Nickfromwales]

15 minutes ago, Boyblue said:

My qusetions are all conceptual,  you're so right but apparently Bahamians have a love affair with concrete blocks, even low cost homes spec blocks.  Funny thing is nicer homes do use wood and metal studs.

When you factor in cost / cement products being imported and carted around, and the time and effort etc, then chasing services into the blockwork for 1st fix, they’re not actually low cost (stud work is cheaper, better, faster, and promotes installation of 1st fix services with ease. 🤷‍♂️😜. 

[Boyblue]

19 minutes ago, Canski said:

only if it is supported from below i.e. sleeper wall. Unless your SE calcs and passes it. There is a lot of load in a 100 mm concrete wall and it sounds like it hasn't been allowed for when they designed the beams. How about stud ?

Just checked with a buddy that builds a lot of homes and he said 215mm blocks are supported from the foundation but not 100mm.  There's no building, just absorbing all of this info before I proceed in a particular direction.  The blocks do carry a lot of weight, especially with scratch, brown and finish coats like we do, on both sides, however B&B has options that can handle cars so I can't imagine it's impossible, but probably not cost effective.

     

[Boyblue]

1 hour ago, saveasteading said:

No problem, but please introduce future queries with that proviso.  it stops us going into panic 'don't do it' mode,  which some queries need.

Will do & I for sure can espouse some crazy ideas so I get where you're coming from.

[Boyblue]

1 hour ago, Nickfromwales said:

When you factor in cost / cement products being imported and carted around, and the time and effort etc, then chasing services into the blockwork for 1st fix, they’re not actually low cost (stud work is cheaper, better, faster, and promotes installation of 1st fix services with ease. 🤷‍♂️😜. 

You precher, me chior 🙂 totally agree

[saveasteading]

OK to summarise my thoughts. 

 

I have often used, and would again use, B and B.

This has been as the ground floor on sports halls where the ground sloped and a ground bearing slab was not my preference.

It jumps gaps between sleeper walls, is as solid as we choose to specify it (no bounce), and won't rot.

 

In one case, the access to a big hall was so awful that b&b allowed for manual handling if the worst of the winter prevented lorries from getting near.

 

The floors are strong and hard enough even before screeding to support cherry pickers...with great care. Timber will not allow that.

 

Also used on the first floor on office blocks and classrooms and similar areas. These are big spans and the loading is quite high, and timber would have been rather deep.

But it is becoming a close thing between b and b , or steel joists, or timber I joists.

 

Plus there is the density for sound absorption, especially if there are different occupiers and they shouldn't be aware of the neighbours.

 

For a house I would always consider b&b, but would compare it to the other options. Even the house dimensions or room arrangement could swing the decision.

[Boyblue]

5 hours ago, saveasteading said:

OK to summarise my thoughts. 

 

I have often used, and would again use, B and B.

This has been as the ground floor on sports halls where the ground sloped and a ground bearing slab was not my preference.

It jumps gaps between sleeper walls, is as solid as we choose to specify it (no bounce), and won't rot.

 

In one case, the access to a big hall was so awful that b&b allowed for manual handling if the worst of the winter prevented lorries from getting near.

 

The floors are strong and hard enough even before screeding to support cherry pickers...with great care. Timber will not allow that.

 

Also used on the first floor on office blocks and classrooms and similar areas. These are big spans and the loading is quite high, and timber would have been rather deep.

But it is becoming a close thing between b and b , or steel joists, or timber I joists.

 

Plus there is the density for sound absorption, especially if there are different occupiers and they shouldn't be aware of the neighbours.

 

For a house I would always consider b&b, but would compare it to the other options. Even the house dimensions or room arrangement could swing the decision.

Room arrangement is the issue I've just landed on.  The house plans here have only 215mm walls coming up from the foundation, which covers in most single story cases, only exterior walls and bathroom walls.  So, there's not the labyrinth of rooms that work so well for you guys.  It's either use long spans and install with a crane or add supports and make the job manageable by hand.  I beleive the former would be playing at the extreme end of the of the span charts and the latter, would be in the comfort range.

Edited Tuesday at 23:54 by Boyblue

[Pocster]

17 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

I’m fine, thanks for asking. You? 

Gave you a ‘sad’ for that - because it’s the type of thing I would have posted .

[G and J]

8 hours ago, Boyblue said:

Room arrangement is the issue I've just landed on.  The house plans here have only 215mm walls coming up from the foundation, which covers in most single story cases, only exterior walls and bathroom walls.  So, there's not the labyrinth of rooms that work so well for you guys.  It's either use long spans and install with a crane or add supports and make the job manageable by hand.  I beleive the former would be playing at the extreme end of the of the span charts and the latter, would be in the comfort range.

There’s been quite a lot of discussion on here about the ‘bounce’ of longer beam spans.   We can’t use a crane, and we don’t want bounce, so we’re putting a sort of mini foundation down the centre of our house to keep the spans to under 12’ and the beams two man liftable.   Is this called a sleeper foundation?

[saveasteading]

4 minutes ago, G and J said:

we don’t want bounce,

Deflection is shown on the design tables so is predictable. In reality I've never felt a b&b floor bounce even in the raw state. A screed is often part of the design. Even adding a grout brushed into the joints makes an improvement.

[Nickfromwales]

49 minutes ago, Pocster said:

Gave you a ‘sad’ for that - because it’s the type of thing I would have posted .

There can only be one king 🤴. 😘

[Pocster]

25 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

There can only be one king 🤴. 😘

True . You can be the queen