Flush casement/traditional appearance window options.

[Roger440]

I looking at  replacing my 1979 UPVC double glazed units at the front of our cottage with new units.

 

Given its traditional nature(ish) i want to go with flush casement style.

 

I do, however, want to go to triple glazing. This is limiting my options.

 

Ive identified, residence9, evolution and Anglian all offer triple glazed options. Ive not found any others so far.

 

Of these 3, does anyone have opinions on how good they are, particulary the window sealing arrangement as this seems to be the longer term short coming of all modern units ive encountered and had the joy of "adjusting".

 

And also, anyone ive missed?

 

Want to stick to UPVC, so no wood options please.

Edited January 17 by Roger440

[Redbeard]

Apologies for not answering the Q - I know nothing about those 3 manuf'rs - but can I ask what spec their glazing unit offer was? Most particularly were they offering 'a 3G unit shoe-horned into a 2G frame' or a 'proper' frame designed for a full-depth -48mm or 52mm -  unit? I have had really frustrating discussions with some suppliers who will only fit a max 36mm (4/12/4/12/4/bells-and-whistles) unit.

Edited January 17 by Redbeard

[Roger440]

2 hours ago, Redbeard said:

Apologies for not answering the Q - I know nothing about those 3 manuf'rs - but can I ask what spec their glazing unit offer was? Most particularly were they offering 'a 3G unit shoe-horned into a 2G frame' or a 'proper' frame designed for a full-depth -48mm or 52mm -  unit? I have had really frustrating discussions with some suppliers who will only fit a max 36mm (4/12/4/12/4/bells-and-whistles) unit.

 

Only one publishes that. And, in essence, i think you are right, its a triple in the space of a double. Id need to check the figures, but it wasnt up to other triple glazing id seen in more conventional windows.

 

I should probably as all of them to clarify. 

[Redbeard]

If it would help I managed to find a supplier who would fit a 'proper' 44mm units (4/16/4/16/4, W/e & 2 x Low E) into a standard Rehau frame (into which most window suppliers will fit 36mm at most. I know Rehau make the requisite bead as they sent me a sample, but the 'DG' world seems to be v comnservative when it comes to 3G. This may all be irrelevant as I'm talking a std Rehau profile which probably isn't 

5 hours ago, Roger440 said:

flush casement style.

 

I did get a lovely explanation from one (otherwise very good) supplier as to why I could not get a 44mm unit (they *would* give me a 36mm). They patiently explained that the ironmongery they'd use was meant for 2G, and that a 'fatter' 3G unit would be too much... (Ponders the weight of 4mm extra width of separator bar and a bit more argon)

[Roger440]

4 hours ago, Redbeard said:

If it would help I managed to find a supplier who would fit a 'proper' 44mm units (4/16/4/16/4, W/e & 2 x Low E) into a standard Rehau frame (into which most window suppliers will fit 36mm at most. I know Rehau make the requisite bead as they sent me a sample, but the 'DG' world seems to be v comnservative when it comes to 3G. This may all be irrelevant as I'm talking a std Rehau profile which probably isn't 

 

I did get a lovely explanation from one (otherwise very good) supplier as to why I could not get a 44mm unit (they *would* give me a 36mm). They patiently explained that the ironmongery they'd use was meant for 2G, and that a 'fatter' 3G unit would be too much... (Ponders the weight of 4mm extra width of separator bar and a bit more argon)

 

Hmmm. Sounds like what i want isnt available? 

 

Im not sure i want to get involved in "creating" my own windows though? Rehau do flush casement, but as you say, that might be different. They only fit 34mm to those.

 

Who was willing to do the 36mm?

 

I need to get some numbers from them all i guess and make a decision from there. Slightly thinner triple should still be better. Should!

[Redbeard]

Windowsupplydirectltd.co.uk (Malvern): Ray: 

ray@windowsupplydirectltd.co.uk

07908095493

 

They will deliver anywhere, as far as I know. They usually (as do others I have come across) make to 36mm, but would be happy to do 44 with the Rehau section.

[torre]

Residence 9 do a 44mm triple glazed in a deep frame and rate well for air permeability. They're expensive for uPVC though and if you want a custom colour even more so.

[Roger440]

1 hour ago, Redbeard said:

Windowsupplydirectltd.co.uk (Malvern): Ray: 

ray@windowsupplydirectltd.co.uk

07908095493

 

They will deliver anywhere, as far as I know. They usually (as do others I have come across) make to 36mm, but would be happy to do 44 with the Rehau section.

 

Thanks. Will give them a tinkle.

 

I probably need to fit them myself, as i need to do remedial work to the reveal as i want to move them further inward.

 

Means no FENSA cert, but will gloss over that, even with the threat of 2 years jail time under the new regs!

 

Edited January 17 by Roger440

[Roger440]

9 minutes ago, torre said:

Residence 9 do a 44mm triple glazed in a deep frame and rate well for air permeability. They're expensive for uPVC though and if you want a custom colour even more so.

 

I couldnt find the depth. Thanks.

 

They seem to be well thought of.  Expensive as you observe.

 

I think i need to stick to UPVC for this. Cant have timber as ill spend my life maintaining them here.

[Gone West]

23 hours ago, Roger440 said:

I looking at  replacing my 1979 UPVC double glazed units at the front of our cottage with new units.

 

Given its traditional nature(ish) i want to go with flush casement style.

 

I do, however, want to go to triple glazing. This is limiting my options.

 

Ive identified, residence9, evolution and Anglian all offer triple glazed options. Ive not found any others so far.

We are gradually replacing our windows and doors ourselves and are fitting triple glazed windows on the north facing wall. We are purchasing them from Modern UPVC Windows and the quality and price has been fine so far.  They do a flush casement as one of their styles.

https://www.modernupvcwindows.co.uk/upvc-energy-efficient-A-rated-windows.php

 

[Redbeard]

''Means no FENSA cert, but will gloss over that, even with the threat of 2 years jail time under the new regs!''

 

You don't need a FENSA cert. Apply for a Building Notice, assume and carry out the duty-holder roles and you have BC approval.

[Roger440]

29 minutes ago, Gone West said:

We are gradually replacing our windows and doors ourselves and are fitting triple glazed windows on the north facing wall. We are purchasing them from Modern UPVC Windows and the quality and price has been fine so far.  They do a flush casement as one of their styles.

https://www.modernupvcwindows.co.uk/upvc-energy-efficient-A-rated-windows.php

 

 

Thanks 

 

They triple is 40mm and U 0.70. Punching some examples in seems quite sensible.

[Roger440]

11 minutes ago, Redbeard said:

''Means no FENSA cert, but will gloss over that, even with the threat of 2 years jail time under the new regs!''

 

You don't need a FENSA cert. Apply for a Building Notice, assume and carry out the duty-holder roles and you have BC approval.

 

Well, i could. But, and i dont really know, as im replacing the windows, will i not need to do some sort of assesment as its a thermal element? I also dont want to get tangled up in nonsense about trickle vents. Im not having any.

 

I really dont want to get involved in paying for reports just to give to the inspector.

 

Nor do i have a a clear idea what the duty holder roles entail. 

[Redbeard]

50 minutes ago, Roger440 said:

Well, i could. But, and i dont really know, as im replacing the windows, will i not need to do some sort of assesment as its a thermal element? I also dont want to get tangled up in nonsense about trickle vents. Im not having any.

 

I really dont want to get involved in paying for reports just to give to the inspector.

 

Nor do i have a a clear idea what the duty holder roles entail. 

 

Well, arguably a window is (of course) a thermal element, but AFAIK it is not a 'Thermal Element' under the Bldg Regs - it is a Controlled fitting. You almost certainly will get Qs re trickle vents but if you can show that you have another supply/extract 'system' (which can be ridiculously simple) you should be able to argue out of this. So no, I don't think you will be required to upgrade the wall in which the window sits.

 

I am almost certain (always allow for a bit of doubt!!) you won't need any paid-for reports.

 

Duty-holder responsibilities are listed here: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/design-and-building-work-meeting-building-requirements

 

The Building Notice form has changed insofar as the client has to sign to say ''I confirm that to the best of my knowledge the work complies with all applicable requirements of the building regulations'', the Principal or sole designer likewise and the Principal or sole contractor ditto. For my last one (renovation of a thermal element) they were all me.

[Roger440]

3 hours ago, Redbeard said:

 

Well, arguably a window is (of course) a thermal element, but AFAIK it is not a 'Thermal Element' under the Bldg Regs - it is a Controlled fitting. You almost certainly will get Qs re trickle vents but if you can show that you have another supply/extract 'system' (which can be ridiculously simple) you should be able to argue out of this. So no, I don't think you will be required to upgrade the wall in which the window sits.

 

I am almost certain (always allow for a bit of doubt!!) you won't need any paid-for reports.

 

Duty-holder responsibilities are listed here: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/design-and-building-work-meeting-building-requirements

 

The Building Notice form has changed insofar as the client has to sign to say ''I confirm that to the best of my knowledge the work complies with all applicable requirements of the building regulations'', the Principal or sole designer likewise and the Principal or sole contractor ditto. For my last one (renovation of a thermal element) they were all me.

 

Thanks for the info, most useful.

 

The trickle vent thing is where i suspect ill get tripped up. Im not sure they are going to accept the draughts and lack of air tightness elsewhere in the house as suitable ventilation?

 

Longer term as i sort the rest of the house out, i will then need to consider ventilation, but thats years away.

 

Once you involve them, its rather difficult to uninvolve them. If they insist on trickle vents, then i have to have them. And thats not happening. Much to ponder.

 

[HughF]

On 18/01/2025 at 09:17, Roger440 said:

 

Thanks 

 

They triple is 40mm and U 0.70. Punching some examples in seems quite sensible.

I went triple from ModernUPVC on my house renovation - no complaints.

[HughF]

On 18/01/2025 at 14:09, Roger440 said:

 

Thanks for the info, most useful.

 

The trickle vent thing is where i suspect ill get tripped up. Im not sure they are going to accept the draughts and lack of air tightness elsewhere in the house as suitable ventilation?

 

Longer term as i sort the rest of the house out, i will then need to consider ventilation, but thats years away.

 

Once you involve them, its rather difficult to uninvolve them. If they insist on trickle vents, then i have to have them. And thats not happening. Much to ponder.

 

Don't involve BC, just buy them and fit them...

[kandgmitchell]

Well this is the ventilation requirements when replacing windows..... my bold

 

Existing windows without background ventilators
3.15 Replacing the windows is likely to increase the airtightness of the dwelling. If ventilation is not
provided via a mechanical ventilation with heat recovery system, then increasing the airtightness of
the building may reduce beneficial ventilation in the building. In these circumstances, it is necessary
to ensure that the ventilation provision in the dwelling is no worse than it was before the work was
carried out. This may be demonstrated in any of the following ways.
Building Regulations 2010 Approved Document F Volume 1, 2021 edition 25
F1(1)
a. Incorporating background ventilators in the replacement windows equivalent to the following.
i. Habitable rooms – minimum 8000mm2 equivalent area.
ii. Kitchen – minimum 8000mm2 equivalent area.
iii. Bathroom (with or without a toilet) – minimum 4000mm2 equivalent area.
b. If the dwelling will have continuous mechanical extract ventilation, installing background
ventilators in any replacement windows which are not in wet rooms, with a minimum equivalent
area of 4000mm2 in each habitable room.
c. Other ventilation provisions, if it can be demonstrated to a building control body that they
comply with the requirements of paragraph 3.2.

 

So paragraph 3.2 says.....
 

3.2 When other building work is carried out that will affect the ventilation of the existing dwelling, for
example:
a. replacing a window or door
b. doing energy efficiency work
the ventilation of the dwelling should either:
a. meet the standards in the relevant approved document
b. not be less satisfactory than before the work was carried out.
NOTE: Ventilation through infiltration should be considered to be part of the ventilation provision of a dwelling. Reducing infiltration might reduce the indoor air quality of the dwelling below the
standards given in Appendix B.

 

Infiltration is defined as:

Infiltration The uncontrolled exchange of air between the inside and outside of a building, through gaps and cracks.

 

Given you are replacing existing upvc windows with more thermally efficient ones it is unlikely that you are going to make the ventilation arrangements any worse than they are now (unless the ex. have trickle vents). 

 

[Roger440]

4 hours ago, HughF said:

Don't involve BC, just buy them and fit them...

 

Normally my preferred option. Just that under the new regs its up to 10 years for retospective enforcement, punishable by fines or jail time. Its also easy to prove as google streetview will do that for them.

 

Previously, there was, to all intents, no enforcement.

 

I shall probably not involve them. Its adds nothing but cost and complication to the job. 

 

 

[HughF]

1 minute ago, Roger440 said:

 

Normally my preferred option. Just that under the new regs its up to 10 years for retospective enforcement, punishable by fines or jail time. Its also easy to prove as google streetview will do that for them.

 

Previously, there was, to all intents, no enforcement.

 

I shall probably not involve them. Its adds nothing but cost and complication to the job. 

 

 

Just say you can’t remember the name of the company who installed them, and you lost the certificate they sent you 🤣

[Roger440]

4 hours ago, kandgmitchell said:

Well this is the ventilation requirements when replacing windows..... my bold

 

Existing windows without background ventilators
3.15 Replacing the windows is likely to increase the airtightness of the dwelling. If ventilation is not
provided via a mechanical ventilation with heat recovery system, then increasing the airtightness of
the building may reduce beneficial ventilation in the building. In these circumstances, it is necessary
to ensure that the ventilation provision in the dwelling is no worse than it was before the work was
carried out. This may be demonstrated in any of the following ways.
Building Regulations 2010 Approved Document F Volume 1, 2021 edition 25
F1(1)
a. Incorporating background ventilators in the replacement windows equivalent to the following.
i. Habitable rooms – minimum 8000mm2 equivalent area.
ii. Kitchen – minimum 8000mm2 equivalent area.
iii. Bathroom (with or without a toilet) – minimum 4000mm2 equivalent area.
b. If the dwelling will have continuous mechanical extract ventilation, installing background
ventilators in any replacement windows which are not in wet rooms, with a minimum equivalent
area of 4000mm2 in each habitable room.
c. Other ventilation provisions, if it can be demonstrated to a building control body that they
comply with the requirements of paragraph 3.2.

 

So paragraph 3.2 says.....
 

3.2 When other building work is carried out that will affect the ventilation of the existing dwelling, for
example:
a. replacing a window or door
b. doing energy efficiency work
the ventilation of the dwelling should either:
a. meet the standards in the relevant approved document
b. not be less satisfactory than before the work was carried out.
NOTE: Ventilation through infiltration should be considered to be part of the ventilation provision of a dwelling. Reducing infiltration might reduce the indoor air quality of the dwelling below the
standards given in Appendix B.

 

Infiltration is defined as:

Infiltration The uncontrolled exchange of air between the inside and outside of a building, through gaps and cracks.

 

Given you are replacing existing upvc windows with more thermally efficient ones it is unlikely that you are going to make the ventilation arrangements any worse than they are now (unless the ex. have trickle vents). 

 

 

Agreed, im not going to make it worse, but i will, probably make it better. By some small amount.

 

Infiltration will remain significant after said installation.

 

However, from your posting, i dont see how i demonstrate that the infiltration is adequate to meet the requirements. So, as always we return to "some subjectiveness". Maybe the BCO will look around and say, yes, obviously, ventilation isnt any issue here, because a cursory examination tells you that. Or he may ask me to demonstrate it, in which case a world of pain and expense descends on me. Which i may not be able to do myself.

 

 

[Roger440]

4 minutes ago, HughF said:

Just say you can’t remember the name of the company who installed them, and you lost the certificate they sent you 🤣

 

Well thats one way i suppose. But im not sure that is an excuse, should enforcement take place.

 

It does appear to be a gaping hole in the system though. Where the cert is issued by the installer such as a FENSA installer, if i dont keep the record, then there is no record.

[HughF]

Private or council BC? private seem a bit more lax in my opinion.

[Roger440]

Just now, HughF said:

Private or council BC? private seem a bit more lax in my opinion.

 

Ive not concluded engaging a BC is a good idea, so havn't decided.Not keen on council people "coming round" generally.

 

Traditionally private = lax. Not sure that still the same, lots have ceased trading under the new regs as it seems they may be subject to at least a small degree of oversight.

 

I used private when i built a garage at my first house. The council BCO wanted 3m trench foundations for a lightweight steel building, which meant cutting the tree roots and thus destabilising them. He said that didnt matter, only compliance did. Moron. I got a private one and did a raft instead.

[HughF]

We did private on our extension, I was panicking about trickle vents as I’d ordered the doors and windows without them (was planning dMVHR) then decided we didn’t want to go dMVHR. Drilled a few holes and screwed them on. BCO didn’t even look at them.