Permitted Development / Planning Permission

[Jack757]

To pick your brains please..... 

We ultimately have a 1/2 acre plot on which we are wanting to build around a 66SQM storage/workshop at the bottom of the garden. We are also looking to demolish and build the house roughly on the existing footprint. 

I have a feeling if we put plans in for all at the same time it may be rejected on the basis 1) garden is green belt and 2) neighbours being awkward.

Ideally we feel we'd like to put permitted development for storage/workshop first, build it and fill it and then put planning permission in just for the house.  However, could the permitted development then get revoked or we be told to remove structure or once its up its up?

I have been advised the local council can take away the permitted development rights at planning also so planning to do it after the house doesn't seem logical!

Any advice please.

[DevilDamo]

It’s always advisable to implement your PD works first. However, even if you did that… the area/volume of the outbuilding would still count towards the Green Belt allowance when you come to formally apply for the replacement dwelling.

 

You would be best speaking to and engaging a Planning Consultant so they can review and advise the appropriate phasing.

[Jack757]

I'm hoping the green belt allowance shouldn't be affected too much due to the size of plot against the workshop area and the house will not be that much bigger footprint that the existing bungalow.

 

Is this something the architect we choose could advise? Not heard of a planning consultant before? 

 

Can they retract the PD after we've built?

[DevilDamo]

The GB allowance would be a factor if the existing bungalow is a replacement in the past, has been extended since it was originally built or when the GB policies came into effect.

 

The LPA can withdraw PD rights following the grant of a Full application. The LPA cannot ask for previous works to be removed.

 

And btw, the plot size doesn’t have an affect on the GB allowance. It’s a percentage of the original building(s).

Edited Sunday at 14:18 by DevilDamo

[Jack757]

Seems quite strange as when we checked previously it looks like only the garden is green belt not the properties nor their frontage to road. The bungalow was an original building of over 100years ago!

 

Confusing even before we start as we've been looking at this for over 3 years!!

[DevilDamo]

Is the garden within the curtilage of the original dwelling?

[Jack757]

Yes both front and rear garden are

 

[Jack757]

This is what is quoted for other planning applications along the same road

The Green Belt boundary is drawn broadly 10 metres beyond the average rear building line of dwellings along the street frontages....

therefore would it make a different to the replacement house?

[DevilDamo]

Can you upload a plan which shows the relationship of the GB boundary to your property and site?

[Jack757]

This gives you a bit of an idea from the property just along the road... 

[DevilDamo]

And what is your site boundary?

[Jack757]

As a rough guide approx here

[markc]

I cannot build anything on my green belt area unless it is skid mounted and can be moved around. PD application on the curtilage and planners and wanting me to keep my workshop/garden room under 100sqm (I wanted 160sqm) to prevent future conversion into a dwelling. They are presently looking at possibly allowing me to build 2x 75sqm with a 1 metre gap between them.

[DevilDamo]

@Jack757 So your “site” is within the Green Belt and any development within the site will be assessed against its impact on the Green Belt.

 

Back to your original question and as I have already mentioned, it’s always advisable to implement PD works first. And also as mentioned, that “could” go against you for the Full application. Unless your Architect is competent in doing so, speak to and seek advice from a Planning Consultant. They can also prepare a Supporting Statement to accompany the Full application.

 

And btw, the LPA would need very good reasons to withdraw all PD rights, even those that relate to Class E. Especially if like you say the replacement dwelling is similar to the existing. Unless you did mean the new footprint will be similar but there will be increased bulk and volume?

[Jack757]

Thanks for your reply. I think we need to speak to a couple more architects rather than just the one and get a idea of where we are going. Sitting on this for over 3 years so far without a clear idea of what to do first or the best way to do it. I would happily leave building the workshop until after the house but it would be really useful for storage in the interim.

 

The existing property is a bungalow and detached garage, we are looking at potentially demolishing both and increasing the existing bungalow footprint by 3 meters across and 2 meters deep and adding an additional floor.

 

With regards to PD Rights this is what was concerning my on the relevant councils website...RELEVANT PERMITTED DEVELOPMENT RIGHTS, AS SET OUT IN SCHEDULE TWO OF THE GENERAL PERMITTED DEVELOPMENT ORDER 1995 MAY BE REMOVED BY CONDITION ON THE PLANNING PERMISSION, WHERE IT IS CONSIDERED THAT IMPLEMENTATION OF THESE PERMITTED DEVELOPMENT RIGHTS COULD CAUSE MATERIAL HARM TO THE GREEN BELT.

[LnP]

10 hours ago, DevilDamo said:

It’s always advisable to implement your PD works first. However, even if you did that… the area/volume of the outbuilding would still count towards the Green Belt allowance when you come to formally apply for the replacement dwelling.

 

You would be best speaking to and engaging a Planning Consultant so they can review and advise the appropriate phasing.

Good advice. We're using a planning consultant and consider it money well spent. You can find one via the RTPI web site.

[Jack757]

11 minutes ago, LnP said:

Good advice. We're using a planning consultant and consider it money well spent. You can find one via the RTPI web site.

What would they do for their cost that the Architect couldn't advise on? Sorry if sounding nieve

[DevilDamo]

@Jack757 Why have you sat on it for 3 years, finances? So your replacement dwelling will be bigger in footprint and volume. You’d need to check your LPA’s policies for the allowable uplift. And yes, the LPA can remove PD rights following grant of a Planning application. They cannot remove buildings which already exist.

 

Architects are in most ways designers and will look at along with dealing with the proposals in comply with Planning and Building Regulations. Planning Consultants are those who specialise in the Planning rules, regulations, phases and potential loopholes. As mentioned above, you can find one via the RTPI website. There may also be some who have helped others in the past via the LPA’s website.

Edited Sunday at 23:07 by DevilDamo

[Jack757]

4 minutes ago, DevilDamo said:

@Jack757 Why have you sat on it for 3 years, finances? So your replacement dwelling will be bigger in footprint and volume. You’d need to check your LPA’s policies for the allowable uplift. And yes, the LPA can remove PD rights following grant of a Planning application. They cannot remove buildings which already exist.

 

Architects are in most ways designers and will look at along with dealing with the proposals in comply with Planning and Building Regulations. Planning Consultants are those who specialise in the Planning rules, regulations, phases and potential loopholes. As mentioned above, you can find one via the RTPI website. There may also be some who have helped others in the past via the LPA’s website.

3 years, personal legal reasons that shouldn't have taken so long!!! Been in no hurry and not planning to move out of my existing house until new house is built (or at least watertight cashflow dependant) so I suppose been thinking and overthinking a lot but no action!

 

Thank you, I think I may be getting my head around it all. I will have to look at the LPA policy. My thoughts were purely guessing no size issue due to previous surrounding properties being built twice if not three times the size of which I am going to (we want a practical house not a huge heat/expense swallowing waste of space).  It seems looking at recent planning applications in the area over the last year they are refusing a lot of pools with outbuildings, garden rooms etc due to green belt when neighbouring properties have had these agreed and built in previous years (the area is full of pools and tennis courts in the gardens!) so a planning consultant may be the way to go!

[LnP]

10 hours ago, Jack757 said:

What would they do for their cost that the Architect couldn't advise on? Sorry if sounding nieve

It's a different skill set. Lots of people use architects to provide planning advice and I'm sure it works out fine, but it's not core to their business. You can even do it yourself if you're prepared to take the time to read lots and learn it and if your situation is straightforward. But there are lots of wrinkles and traps - CIL, BNG, heat pumps, bat surveys etc and there's new stuff coming along all the time. Some of it is not written in the guidance and very subjective and based on precedent. Our project is in two parts. The first part was to renovate a Victorian coach house in the garden, for which we needed to get planning permission. It took so long to be determined and we wanted to get started that our planning consultant advised we could take the risk and start. We were 2/3 complete by the time we got the planning permission. I wouldn't have done that without professional advice. The second part of our project is proving to be not straightforward and I'm glad to have his support.

 

Wherever you go, you'll have to pay for it so my preference was to engage an expert. I found our guy through the RTPI web site. We engaged him before we engaged an architect because we needed to sort out planning issues first. He was previously head of development and control at our local authority so he does know his way around.