Balancing rads help.....

[marshian]

56 minutes ago, Dee said:

Sorry! The green valve Ts into the return pipe on top of the boiler where that black thing is, (that's the return). It's the second pipe from the left as it bends horizontally.

 

OK - so almost certainly an ABV

 

56 minutes ago, Dee said:

There is a dial with numbers on the green valve, should I adjust it to cool the return? Right tighty or lefty lucy?

 

Well we need to establish if the return via the ABV is warm first 🙂

Have you done that yet???

 

If there are numbers on it it will probably either

 

relate to operating pressure in which case the higher the number the better in terms of shutting down flow

 

or

 

just be a number scale in which case I don't know - you'll just have to experiment

 

Here is what I'd do if I don't understand the impact of something like this

 

Firstly boiler needs to be firing - your flow temp is 60 deg - that's enough to burn so be careful with hands on pipe tests

 

First with hands on pipe above and below (or a temp clamp) wind the dial round to the max number

 

Does the pipe below feel warmer or cooler

 

If it feels warmer then the number shown equals more return

 

If it feels cooler then the number shown equals less return

 

Then repeat the other way wind the dial to the min value

 

That should tell you what number to set it too (The number that makes the pipework below it cooler)

 

PS It's lefty loosey 😉 sorry 

 

56 minutes ago, Dee said:

One of the kitchen1 rads is now stone cold! It's fed I think from Bed4 above and pipes drop down to feed kitchen 1 and 2.

On kit 1 I'm pretty sure the flow and return are the wrong way around as rtn is 55⁰. Is it as simple as removing the rad and turning it around?

 

Please don't do that (in bold) - the hot end is the flow the cool end is the return it does not matter which end the TRV is the flow and return and it's path thro the rad doesn't change

 

Nearly all TRV's have a double arrow on them - they work in either flow direction.

 

All lockshields don't care either - they can be on flow end or return - if fact remember before we had TRV's we had a valve with a knob on one end of the rad so we could turn it on and off or slow the flow (the other end would have the same valve but with no knob on it acting as a flow restrictor when balanced)

 

56 minutes ago, Dee said:

You're so knowledgeable, patient and kind. I think everyone else has given up on me!!

 

I'm none of those things BTW - I just have an interest in getting my heating to perform at it's best and made quite a few errors on the way.

 

"Experience is what you get when you don't want it"

 

I don't think they've given up on you but it's clear to me you take a little while to grasp / understand stuff so you need a little more explanation than just "do this"

[Dee]

17 hours ago, marshian said:

 

I reckon you'll find that the temp above the ABV when the boiler is firing will be 60 - the temp below it will be above 50 maybe as high as 55

The temp above the green valve is rtn 38, below rtn 35. The flow from the boiler is 58, rtn is 47. The number the valve is set to is 5=0.5 bar

Edited Saturday at 15:47 by Dee

[Dee]

6 hours ago, marshian said:

But it's clear to me you take a little while to grasp / understand stuff

I do, your so right....I'm as thick as a brick and no one is more frustrated by the fact than me!

[marshian]

2 hours ago, Dee said:

The temp above the green valve is rtn 38, below rtn 35. The flow from the boiler is 58, rtn is 47. The number the valve is set to is 5=0.5 bar

 

That doesn't make sense but lets run with it

 

What's the maximum number on the ABV - ie highest?

[marshian]

2 hours ago, Dee said:

I do, your so right....I'm as thick as a brick and no one is more frustrated by the fact than me!

 

It's not meant as an insult - just a comment - no malice in the statement

 

It takes me ages to get my head round something - electrics especially

[Nickfromwales]

I'm just dipping my toes in & out atm, sorry, but a lot of good info here so happy days!

 

I'm just wondering what the need is for the ABV if there are a couple of towel rads (or other rads) which are 'open' by design (and therefore will act as bypass anyways), so possibly the ABV could be closed to its max pressure setting and then the situation reviewed to see if it's just old and is letting by way too much eg unnecessarily wasting pump energy.

 

Best to look at the TRV's to see if the arrows on the body are single or double-headed arrows (as the older TRV's are very often only function correctly one-way), given that some are old / original?

[marshian]

24 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

I'm just dipping my toes in & out atm, sorry, but a lot of good info here so happy days!

 

Working thro stuff always helps

 

24 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

I'm just wondering what the need is for the ABV if there are a couple of towel rads (or other rads) which are 'open' by design (and therefore will act as bypass anyways), so possibly the ABV could be closed to its max pressure setting and then the situation reviewed to see if it's just old and is letting by way too much eg unnecessarily wasting pump energy.

 

From the temps I'm not sure it's open at all

 

But then again I'm not sure on the measurement process

 

As @Dee has a couple of rads open all the time I agree - shut the ABV and see if it allows the system pressure to rise and the cold rads to warm up

 

 

24 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

Best to look at the TRV's to see if the arrows on the body are single or double-headed arrows (as the older TRV's are very often only function correctly one-way), given that some are old / original?

 

Good point - I forget older TRV's don't like being installed in the wrong flow direction - at low openings the flow forces them to close

 

Anyway thanks for the contribution - I think @Dee thinks he's all alone but you are never alone in a forum community it's what keeps them alive

 

 

 

 

 

[Nickfromwales]

2 minutes ago, marshian said:

Anyway thanks for the contribution - I think @Dee thinks he's all alone but you are never alone in a forum community it's what keeps them alive

Dee is a she lol, IIRC.

[marshian]

Just now, Nickfromwales said:

Dee is a she lol, IIRC.

He She It - Apparently gender can be fluid these days so I'm a she, a he, an it but best of all I'm a banana split

[Dee]

25 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

28 minutes ago, marshian said:

Anyway thanks for the contribution - I think @Dee thinks he's all alone but you are never alone in a forum community it's what keeps them alive

Dee is a she

I am a she, will always be a she but I often wonder when I'm up a ladder clearing gutters or unblocking drains if I am atall.....;)

[Dee]

4 hours ago, marshian said:

6 hours ago, Dee said:

 

 

It's not meant as an insult

None taken! Honestly

[marshian]

2 hours ago, Dee said:

I am a she, will always be a she but I often wonder when I'm up a ladder clearing gutters or unblocking drains if I am atall.....;)

 

Well @Dee you need a bit of help and she or he or it it matters not - I'm a he

but it doesn't matter either way - you still need help

 

Come to the Crown we can say hi and we continue the conversation in real life

[marshian]

@John Carroll would probably be able to tell you what that circulation pump flows but on Pump Speed 3 it should be more than enough to cope with a big circuit of 19 rads

 

TL:DR - might be worth checking / cleaning pump internals??

 

Long Version

 

I've just had a thought (based on my experience a couple of years back)

 

My CH circuit always ran on PS 1 (Pump Speed setting one) ie the slowest setting on the pump - gave best DT's at the rads - the house warmed up quickly and all was good in the world (I didn't have WC but ran a fixed Flow temp of 55 Deg C because below that the HW tank wouldn't heat up in the time slot) Only when it was really cold did I bump the pump speed to 2 rather than turn up the flow temp.

 

I didn't like PS 2 because it circuit was noisier and Mrs Marshian is a stupidly light sleeper and circuit noise wakes her up.

 

Then one winter the house wouldn't heat up as well and I had to turn the pump speed up to 2 when it wasn't really that cold outside.

 

I really struggled to understand what was happening but eventually put it down to an aging pump (20 years old)

 

Then when it got really cold I needed PS3 - something was really wrong.

 

So I isolated the pump, removed it and split it

 

This is what the impeller looked like

 

 

Yeah that's really not going to help move water

 

 

I have a magnaclean in circuit it never pulls much out of the system - this is typical after 6 months

 

 

However there was one thing I missed - the magnaclean is after the pump not before it so protecting the boiler but not the pump

 

So I cleaned all the vanes out on the impeller

 

 

Yes I know it doesn't look like new but the magnatite I scraped out was a good half an egg cup worth.

 

Pump back together and guess what - Pump Speed 1 was absolutely fine again - no system noise, warm house, happy wife = happy life.

 

Next time I did some work to the CH circuit I swapped pump and magnaclean unit so it now protects the pump as well as the boiler.

[Dee]

Blimey! I've had some success!

I took a different approach today. 2 rads refused to heat and they have been the the bain so I turned all 19 rads off completely, turned heat back on and opened 15 rads 1/4 turn. I've gone back a tweaked those 15 and now they are all lovrly and warm. I've shut down the remaining 4 in the rooms that are never used...I can live with that.

I'm cross though because I don't knnow why that method has worked.

I'll go back later and measure the F and R out of curiosity but right now I have a lovely warm home and I don't know why!! 😄 

[Nickfromwales]

On 12/01/2025 at 14:04, Dee said:

right now I have a lovely warm home and I don't know why!! 😄 

Buildhub divining rods to the rescue lol!

[marshian]

On 12/01/2025 at 14:04, Dee said:

I'll go back later and measure the F and R out of curiosity but right now I have a lovely warm home and I don't know why!! 😄 

 

That would be good.....

 

What setting is the ABV now?

[Dee]

23 minutes ago, marshian said:

What setting is the ABV now

I didnt touch the valve, as it was, don't trust myself!

[marshian]

12 minutes ago, Dee said:

I didnt touch the valve, as it was, don't trust myself!

 

I reckon with a few rads always in circuit and no TRV's you might get a better drop on the return to the boiler with a tighter ABV

 

If you don't get a better return temp and you know what setting it is now you can always put it back to where it was - you can't really lose??

[Dee]

9 hours ago, marshian said:

no TRV's you might get a better drop on the return to the boiler with a tighter ABV

There are 2 towel rails and the hall that don't have TRVs should i change these to Tvrs?

but what do you mean by 'tighter' abv? It's set to 5 = 0.5 bar, 5 being the highest number on the valve settings. 

I'm still not achieving anything close to 12⁰ so the efficient must be very poor and apart from a warm home I'm desperate to save energy/money on gas!

I definitely don't have the confidence to remove and clean the pump (runs on 3) but as its 20+ yrs old do you think I should get it changed? It does get scalding hot which concerns me. 

I will post all temps soon

[Dee]

22 hours ago, marshian said:

 

@marshian

Readings since it's all settled down.

I established that the ground floor struggles more that upstairs. All floors are solid downstairs so pipes drop down to feed them.

Impossible to get 12⁰, given up!

The further down the list the further the rads are from boiler.

 

        Flow.          Rtn.       Rad

Ground floor:

K1      46.            54.         44

K2.     51.            44.         45

Loo.   45.           53.          46

Hall.   47.            54.         47

Study 55.           41.          47

First floor:

Bath1. 56.           46.         46

Bed3. 56.           49.         44

Bed4. 42.           50.         44

Land.  50.           44.         43

Bed2.  52.           44.         45

Bath2  51.            44.         43

Bath3. 56.           47.          49

Bed1 A 55.          45.          44

         B 48.          43.          44

         C 50.           43.         43

[marshian]

2 hours ago, Dee said:

@marshian

Readings since it's all settled down.

I established that the ground floor struggles more that upstairs. All floors are solid downstairs so pipes drop down to feed them.

Impossible to get 12⁰, given up!

The further down the list the further the rads are from boiler.

 

Quick fire questions

 

Boiler flow temp still 60?

 

All TRV's (where fitted are wide open) for a decent period of time say 30 mins after heating first came on before you took the readings?

 

Because I'm now checking everything - You took the readings in the warm up phase - ie not when the rooms were up to temp and every room was cosy?

 

Still don't know why you are trying to target 12 Deg delta on all the rads?

 

Also don't know why you can't understand a really simple point

 

The "hot" end of a rad is the "flow" and the "cooler" end is the "return"

 

It doesn't matter if the hot end has a TRV or a lockshield at that end it's still the hot end therefore the flow - when you insist on putting the higher temp reading as the return value and the lower temp reading as the flow it makes no sense whatsoever.

 

In the case of K1, Loo, Hall and Bed 4 you are declaring that the water in the radiators are being warmed up by the temp in the room because the return is higher than the flow - if that is the case then I think your room temps are too high

[marshian]

15 hours ago, Dee said:

There are 2 towel rails and the hall that don't have TRVs should i change these to Tvrs?

 

Only if you want too - but towel rails are normally bypass rads because towels take longer to dry and bathrooms with towels over the rads take longer to heat. If you do fit them with TRV's you'll need to make your ABV less restrictive

 

15 hours ago, Dee said:

but what do you mean by 'tighter' abv? It's set to 5 = 0.5 bar, 5 being the highest number on the valve settings.

 

If you are happy the valve isn't allowing flow thro it due to an aging spring and the temps are very different either side then - my ABV has a scale with a number of points on it from 0.05 bar to 0.5 bar and it takes about thirty turns to go from 0.05 to 0.5 bar so I'm not sure how one with 0-5 numbers each 60 deg apart would work - I've tried google image search but not found anything similar

 

15 hours ago, Dee said:

I'm still not achieving anything close to 12⁰ so the efficient must be very poor and apart from a warm home I'm desperate to save energy/money on gas!

 

Not sure why the focus on 12 Deg but I've said that before

 

15 hours ago, Dee said:

I definitely don't have the confidence to remove and clean the pump (runs on 3) but as its 20+ yrs old do you think I should get it changed? It does get scalding hot which concerns me.

 

OK get a plumber to look at it

 

It should only be a similar temperature to the water circulating thro it

 

15 hours ago, Dee said:

I will post all temps soon

 

Seen them and responded