passivhaus timber windows and doors supplied and installed with sensible payment terms (alu-clad finish ideally)

[marmic]

Hi all, have added my question to an existing discussion but thought worth posting new too:

 

Any recommendations please for passivhaus timber windows and doors supplied and installed (properly!) with sensible payment terms (alu-clad finish ideally). Had been talking to a company which seemed a likely choice, but rather arrogant in end with full payment required in advance of install, and won't budge. And stating they won't make mistakes and if there is an error it will be the fault of the timber frame company!

 

many thanks..............m

 

[markharro]

Uniwin - near Edinburgh

[Russell griffiths]

Norrsken 

but you have to pay for them before install. 
isn’t this a bit like buying sausages and not wanting to pay for them in case they don’t taste good. 
you can probably pay for installation separately, but windows will need payment in full before release from the factory. 
 

to get a good install YOU need to know how it’s done, do your research find out the right and wrong ways, then question how they intend to do it, question them again until you know exactly what they intend doing and you are happy with it. 
 

there are hundreds of posts on here with people being unhappy about something, but they did zero research and then got a surprise when the install wasn’t done as expected. 
 

 

[marmic]

thank you for responses - any more recommendstions welcome please.  will be trying to find time to make some calls tomorrow.

 

ref payment terms on supply and installed nothing like buying sausages! More comparable perhaps with a meal in a restaurant - you woudn't accept or pay for it if dished up on a mouldy plate or it was raw chicken with grass sprinkles for veg!  Yes a ridiculous analogy I know - but would you pay in advance for say some decorating work - the answer has to be no!   I work in the construction industry (mainly commercial) for a specialist sub-contractor and agent for a number of manufacturers -  it's completely normal not to pay in full until work complete and to a satisfactory standard and handed over snag free, then generally retention (often at 5%) for defect period. usual scenario is 50% released at project PC, 50% at 12 months!  terms usually agreed on credit checks / risk - so yes occasionaly in full in advance with stage payments. Vesting certificate generally then required. The window company mentioned didnt even know what that was!  So yes I'm finding it a bit of a culture shock how suppliers and manufacturers treat self builders and it seems quite a number of them assume we'll all do exactly as we are told!  Yes of course payment terms will be less generous as companies need to protect themselves to an extent against individuals not paying, but paying for everything in advance is not reasonable if supply and install! Which I see as a de-risking exercise (as long as payment terms leave something on the table!). Supply only yes a different conversation, but then if a third party used for install and it goes wrong they will be blaming each other.  And yes everything will be throughly checked for correct install and procurement undertaken with very careful due diligence! Timber frame terms renegotiated - everyone happy.  Another timber frame company nearly secured the order until they insisted on a ridiculous contract being signed (putting all risk on me and making a mockery of a so called fixed cost) and unreasonable payment demands............ The customer should be issuing the contract!      BE CAREFUL OUT THERE 😀

[marmic]

ps - and for supply only credit completely normal with builders merchants!

[MikeSharp01]

You won't find a supplier prepared to take the risk on you! You need to derisk it yourself by paying by credit card in 30K lumps - take care there are dragons here. Or go to your local betting shop and see if you can get cover that way. We used Norrsken and they worked out just fine. Carefully doing the measuring processing the order sorting install, doing it well and fixing the one problem we had, a seal getting caught up, diligently. 

[marmic]

thanks Mike - didn't occur to me such companies would accept credit cards!  So yes some protection that way.  Most clearly see us as retail transactions then and presume build in the bank charges.  All seems very strange and unreasonable to me doing what I do for a living (including providing due diligence advice to prinipal contractors, big and small).  Guessing there's been lots of window industry fingers burnt?  Albeit going back in time there certainly used to be a lot of dodgy players out there too!   Hopefully I'll find time later to explore further...............

[marmic]

great conversation with Uniwin - unfortunately we are too far south for them to install.  But if we end up going supply only route will definitely be talking to them!

[Russell griffiths]

I think the problem is with your commercial background your used to calling the shots. 
in this self build world your a very small fish, you will only be ordering one set of windows, not a continuous stream. 
they don’t really need to be that flexible. 
but also you will be having bespoke windows that only fit your house, nobody is going to make these without full payment. 
I personally would find good quality windows by doing your own research, don’t go by opinions on here, lots recommended rational, I went to two different rational showrooms and hated them, so down to your opinion on what you like really. 
with fitting I would employ a couple of fitters, or even better a good carpenter or similar trade, and then discuss what you would like doing and how you want it done. 
the problem with the fitters from the window company is they are used to chucking them in a certain way and at a certain speed. 
you want somebody to work to your schedule not theirs. 
 

[marmic]

I think the problem is with your commercial background your used to calling the shots. 

 

not at all - on the other side of the fence actually - and with made to measure high end systems! (rarely used in resi)

in this self build world your a very small fish, you will only be ordering one set of windows, not a continuous stream. 
they don’t really need to be that flexible. 

 

absolutely - still not right though!  if we were all to do this more than once needs a buying group setting up!

[Russell griffiths]

With regards to buying power I wish we could set up some sort of buying group. 
 

when I started this build I had 3 builders merchants send a rep to mine to have a look, they made all the right noises and said they would help me out on prices. 
come the day of ordering stuff, I still found they  couldn’t get close to online orders, I wasn’t ordering small amounts either. 
5 full pallets of plasterboard and the cheapest merchant was still £400 dearer than I could get it delivered online. 

[Mr Blobby]

48 minutes ago, Russell griffiths said:

with fitting I would employ a couple of fitters, or even better a good carpenter or similar trade, and then discuss what you would like doing and how you want it done. 
the problem with the fitters from the window company is they are used to chucking them in a certain way and at a certain speed. 
you want somebody to work to your schedule not theirs. 

 

Exactly this. 

If I was ordering windows again I would get supply only.  Then get a few joiners to take several days to install them slowly and properly how you want them fitted.

[marmic]

hello again all,

 

starting to think perhaps supply only too - if nothing left on the table at least it keeps some control !

 

Has anyone experience with 21degrees (formerly green building store) please?  possible one stop shop for fenestration, mvhr, and PV........ website says all the right things

 

kr.............ma