Light refurb/renovation & building regs

[Mike]

2 minutes ago, Roger440 said:

What the going rate for such an assessment for a whole house project? I've never done such a thing. I assume I'm going to need to provide a detailed plan/drawings for them to work from too? So another person to pay.

I can't help you there - I'm able to do it myself. But no doubt someone else will be able to give you a clue. Think of the heating oil you'll save, rather than the cost :)

 

5 minutes ago, Roger440 said:

My concern, given the construction method of the house, is I will need to use something like wood fibre and lime plaster, for example, which, clearly, many BCO's dont understand and/or are unwilling to sign off.

Most products will have manufacturer's recommendations or BBA certificates to support their use so, if you present everything professionally and on paper it need not be a big issue, at least not for thermal insulation.

[Roger440]

3 minutes ago, Mike said:

I can't help you there - I'm able to do it myself. But no doubt someone else will be able to give you a clue. Think of the heating oil you'll save, rather than the cost

 

Most products will have manufacturer's recommendations or BBA certificates to support their use so, if you present everything professionally and on paper it need not be a big issue, at least not for thermal insulation.

 

Currently, it's cheaper to buy oil than to to do the work. Based solely on the financials, no rational person would do anything. However I do prefer the increased comfort from said insulation.

 

Yes, you are correct that the BBA certification should be ok, but often isn't with some of the less mainstream stuff. 

 

Essentially though, if I understand correctly, I will need to pay for drawings plans of my proposed works, bearing mind until I strip everything, I don't know for sure what's there, in order to pay for an sap assessment. 

 

Just guessing, but what, £2-3k in reports before I've done any work?

 

Assuming it all goes to plan and there's no surprises that require the reports to be reworked to reflect reality.

 

 

 

 

[Gus Potter]

On 25/10/2024 at 10:52, Russell griffiths said:

Why can you not draw up some pictures of everything you want to do

Good advice.

 

On 27/10/2024 at 22:23, Roger440 said:

My concern,

Lets see some detail, a drawing or two. Look at it another way.. there are plenty BCO's that will be happy to help you with this, make suggestions.

 

In my day job I often have open and frank discussions with BCO's.. we don't fall out.. we chew the fat and talk about how we can meet each others technical requirements and do a good job.

[Roger440]

1 hour ago, Gus Potter said:

Good advice.

 

Lets see some detail, a drawing or two. Look at it another way.. there are plenty BCO's that will be happy to help you with this, make suggestions.

 

In my day job I often have open and frank discussions with BCO's.. we don't fall out.. we chew the fat and talk about how we can meet each others technical requirements and do a good job.

 

i will do some sketches and post them. They will be just that though, sketches.

 

You are a professional and in the trade. A BCO is rather more likely to take notice of you, than a DIYer like me.

 

My, limited, experience of BCO's hast been a good one. Hence i now, in the recent past, simply havent bothered. Its adds nothing except cost to the end result. And I wasnt concerned as there was virtually no risk of any enforcement action. Thats seems to have changed.

 

One question before i go and do some drawings, your discussions with the BCO, do they still do that? Under the new regulations, my understanding is they can no longer offer advice and suggestions? (or at least are not supposed to). 

 

 

[saveasteading]

1 hour ago, Roger440 said:

my understanding is they can no longer offer advice and suggestions

They are not designers. But if you present a half decent proposal they will discuss any problems with it....but it isn't for them to sort problems...the fee is too small.

 

1 hour ago, Roger440 said:

adds nothing except cost to the end result.

Their job is to keep standards to a reasonably high level for you and society. We may not always agree with the bco ( I've had big arguments too) but I think your comment is unfair.

[Roger440]

18 hours ago, saveasteading said:

Their job is to keep standards to a reasonably high level for you and society. We may not always agree with the bco ( I've had big arguments too) but I think your comment is unfair.

 

I think you may have taken that out of context a touch.

 

If im going to do something that either complies, or in this case is otherwise acceptable, then it is fact that it adds cost. It doesnt add anything beyond this. The overall outcome isnt "better" in any way because they are involved. Their additional cost in isolation isnt that big, but the costs of generating drawings, SAP assesments and whatever else they ask for all start to stack up quickly as these are things i cannot do myself. All to do something that is a well recognised solution to insulating an old stone building.

 

I would however take issue with the assertion they keep standards high. From my limited experience, its been anything but as i have previously posted. The latest round of changes to the system reflect the fact it wasnt working and standard were not high, ie, like my old place, where they were happy to sign off any old crap. Indeed, stuff that wasnt actually there.

 

Im not in any postion to have big arguments with them as its not my specialist field of knowledge, so am really keen not to find myself in that situation. Nor can i "add budget" to the job, as indeed you might as a professional in the field.

 

Off to do some sketches.

[saveasteading]

19 hours ago, saveasteading said:

to keep standards to a reasonably high level

is what I said.   I've had hundreds of projects experience with them so appreciate that the standard of inspectors' knowledge varies.

But I've also  heard so many tales from them about appalling standards and attitude of some builders, and householders...I and you haven't seen how bad it can be apparently.

[Roger440]

Ok, heres some crude sketches of my plans as they stand at the moment.

 

As you will see, the back of the house is cavity wall, not solid. Ive not worried about this too much at moment as this is a bit more conventional, though still going round in circles re EPS beards.

 

The insulation system referred to is: https://woodfibre.co.uk/internal-wall-insulation-iwi-28-w.asp

 

Hopefully its mostly self explanatory? Any comments welcome.

 

 

 

[Roger440]

6 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

is what I said.   I've had hundreds of projects experience with them so appreciate that the standard of inspectors' knowledge varies.

But I've also  heard so many tales from them about appalling standards and attitude of some builders, and householders...I and you haven't seen how bad it can be apparently.

 

Agreed

 

The work signed off in my case, was, afterall, done by the developer not the BCO

 

But it was signed off by the enforcers of said regs. At best it was gross negligence, maybe corruption, but i cant prove that. I guess my biggest issue is that there is no comeback on the inspector. They cannot be held responsible for anything, unless you have extremely deep pockets.. Which is of course why we are where we are with the latest round of changes. And why i question the value of the process and the certificate. In my case it wasnt worth the value of the paper it was printed on.

 

Anyway, this is largely a diversion

[Roger440]

On 30/10/2024 at 20:19, Roger440 said:

Ok, heres some crude sketches of my plans as they stand at the moment.

 

As you will see, the back of the house is cavity wall, not solid. Ive not worried about this too much at moment as this is a bit more conventional, though still going round in circles re EPS beards.

 

The insulation system referred to is: https://woodfibre.co.uk/internal-wall-insulation-iwi-28-w.asp

 

Hopefully its mostly self explanatory? Any comments welcome.

 

 

 

 

Anybody have any thoughts on my random scribblings please?

 

[Redbeard]

OK:

 

150 PIR on the sloping ceilings would meet the Regs. 60 WF on the walls wouldn't, but you can put a cogent argument that you are reducing interstitial condensation risks and thus potentially extending the life of the building at a slight 'energy cost'. If I understand you correctly I think you are saying that if you cannot comply to the letter you may be better saving the BC costs and doing the best you can. I think the issue may arise when you come to sell, when the buyer's solicitor asks re works and re BC approval. If there is none they throw up their hands in horror but ultimately agree to be a lot less horrified if you drop the price, probably by an amount far in excess of the BC fee. Yes I know about indemnity policies and so on, but (a) that they cost and (b) that you cannot apparently get one if BC are already aware of the breach, which they may be via the potential purchaser's enquiries. I hope this helps. I don't expect everyone to agree with me but, in old examiner-speak it at least 'shows my workings'.

 

[Roger440]

36 minutes ago, Redbeard said:

OK:

 

150 PIR on the sloping ceilings would meet the Regs. 60 WF on the walls wouldn't, but you can put a cogent argument that you are reducing interstitial condensation risks and thus potentially extending the life of the building at a slight 'energy cost'. If I understand you correctly I think you are saying that if you cannot comply to the letter you may be better saving the BC costs and doing the best you can. I think the issue may arise when you come to sell, when the buyer's solicitor asks re works and re BC approval. If there is none they throw up their hands in horror but ultimately agree to be a lot less horrified if you drop the price, probably by an amount far in excess of the BC fee. Yes I know about indemnity policies and so on, but (a) that they cost and (b) that you cannot apparently get one if BC are already aware of the breach, which they may be via the potential purchaser's enquiries. I hope this helps. I don't expect everyone to agree with me but, in old examiner-speak it at least 'shows my workings'.

 

 

Im intending to die here, but that may not pan out, so yes, when selling it can be an issue. Traditionally an indemnity policy is peanuts, because the risk of action was essentially zero. I bought this house in the full knowledge that nothing that had been done, boiler aside, had certification. My previous house proved that such certification, of which there was plenty, was to all practical intents, worthless. Had i relied on it as evidence of compliance i would have been most disappointed.

 

But, yes, going forward, logically those indemnity policies will go up in cost as the risk of enforcement increases.

 

But to get to the nub of it, if it was just the BC fee, that would be OK. But its not like i can present my sketches and say, i want to do this, is that OK? Unless ive very much misunderstood, im going to need "proper" drawings, SAP assesment, maybe a WUFI condensation risk analaysis for the walls. None of these will tell me anything i dont already know.

 

However, i  cant do any of these things myself. Things things are not £50. So i either spend significant sums on these things, with no guarantee of acceptance as i am departing from the regs, and the risk of further reports and / or changes to what i can do.

 

Then ill have to do the same again later when i do the windows. And the back of the house, the cavity wall bit. Each time another 4 figure sum.

 

It makes no sense to keep shelling out for things that add nothing to the house, for a project that even without those additional report costs etc is way beyond the 15 year payback period to which the regs refer.

 

Essentially, my choices are do it by the rules with lots of extra cost incurred, with no certainty what the final cost will be, just do it with out approval, or do nothing and buy more oil (which is the financially sensible option).

 

My takeaway so far is that i could probably get approval for my plans, but at considerable additional cost. Cost which adds nothing to the final result. Though  im struggling to believe anyone will let me do UFH on an uninsulated slab?!?

 

Im conflicted given the new penalties...........................................

 

 

 

 

[Mike]

1 hour ago, Roger440 said:

Then ill have to do the same again later when i do the windows. And the back of the house, the cavity wall bit. Each time another 4 figure sum.

Provided you have a master plan, roll it all into one application. Provide you're with LA Building Control they're unlikely to worry about when you complete - I know one project that must have lasted 20 years - though a private company may not be so accommodating (or may go bust in that timescale). As a bonus, if you get approval under the current Regs then any updates won't apply (they normally only apply to new applications).

 

 

[Roger440]

9 hours ago, Mike said:

Provided you have a master plan, roll it all into one application. Provide you're with LA Building Control they're unlikely to worry about when you complete - I know one project that must have lasted 20 years - though a private company may not be so accommodating (or may go bust in that timescale). As a bonus, if you get approval under the current Regs then any updates won't apply (they normally only apply to new applications).

 

 

 

You make a good point. Wasnt aware i can hang it out as long as it takes me. Which would indeed be quite a while!

 

I do still have the issue of cost and risk of doing it with approval, which, seems, unless someone says different, inescapable.