Kitchen air flow

[DundeeDancer]

Not sure if builder has improved my original plan or if we are making a mistake to the air flow/extraction in a new kitchen install.

 

The original plan that I provided has installed an extraction fan that takes 33% of extract air out of a duct connected to the side spigot (Fan and duct marked in orange below).

 

The other 67% of the extraction air is sucked through the front face of the fan which is on the left hand side of the picture.

 

Please note: there is nothing stopping the air from flowing between the cupboards.

 

However what the builder has built so far is below:-

 

As highlighted by the orange and pink circles the air will now not flow so easily around the cupboards.

 

Purple line will be roughly where the duck will run to take the secondary air flow from the washing machine cupboard.

 

I can't make my mind up if the way the builder has built it so far will be a better design for taking the hot moist air along from the hob area, might be if the tenant remembers to switch the hod on when cooking.

 

Or if my original design with more open room for the air to circulate is any better?

 

I'm thinking mostly from the point of view ventilating the kitchen cupboards so they last a decent amount of time.

 

Any thoughts appreciated.

 

Thanks, DD

[AliG]

I actually think what the builder has done looks nicer.

 

I wouldn't worry about steam getting up into the area under the flyover. We have a fake wooden mantle around the hob and steam has had no effect on it. My wife also lets the pressure cooker vent right across the front of our painted cabinets which upsets me but doesn't seem to be doing any harm. An extractor rarely sucks all the steam into it anyway.

 

Looking at it, I assume that the plan is for the hood to be recirculating and then the extractor on the wall to be the actual extractor which is allowed in the regs, although it needs twice the rate of extraction of a hood above the cooker. I would be concerned that it never gets switched on unless it is automatic and even then someone will probably switch it off. Tenants don't like fan noise and don't necessarily care about causing you problems with condensation so I would try to have something that they cannot easily switch off. Maybe connect the extractor to the kitchen light or get one that works automatically with humidity.

[Nickfromwales]

40 minutes ago, AliG said:

I actually think what the builder has done looks nicer.

+1 and what I would have done. 

[Ferdinand]

 

If it is a rental then have you considered installing a trickle mode + boost fan eg dMEV?

 

For a rental the constant slow ventilation is very good background insurance against eg the T forgetting to switch the other one on, or the recirculating hood being less good than an extraction hood.

 

I know you considered this in your bathroom, but what about the kitchen?

 

On the T switching it off, I would play as loose with the regs as possible to make it more difficult to switch off - eg install a non-switched FCU or put it somewhere awkward. In my view humidity controlled ones are not worth the pfaff and complexity - the money is better spent on one that is nearly silent and won't annoy the T, plus some firm tenant condensation education at the start.

 

Have you addressed the other end of making it easy to do things like dry washing in a way that won't cause condensation? eg

 

1 - Put tight shelves over or fixed covers across radiators to prevent washing being dried thereupon.

2 - Provide an outside washing line if you have the space.

3 - Provide an effective indoor drying facility that is easier to use than the rads and harmless - eg pulley in the bathroom and / or clothes horse if renting furnished.

4 - Clause in the agreement for condenser dryers only.

 

Where I have externally venting tumble dryers, I tend to offer to get my handyman to do the fitting just to be sure.

 

My own policy is to install a Nuaire loft fan in all refurbs and a Vent-Axia Lo-Carbon Tempra with Remote Monitor potential so that I can guarantee (subject to T switch-off) a continuous flow of air through the house from top to bottom. The retrofits have been a bit painful bank-balance wise since it is about £450 plus fitting for the two each time, but it is an investment I think justified. 

 

The mistake I made once was to put the Heat Recovery Fan in a small bathroom, which while it does recover 75% of the heat also guarantees that the incoming is slightly cooler on the skin, and the T complained about feeling a cold draft after climbing out of the shower in the nud - which was a fair comment. Now I put them in kitchens or utilities away from the cooker.

 

Ferdinand

 

Edited November 8, 2017 by Ferdinand

[DundeeDancer]

 

Fan A is to be : http://www.nuaire.co.uk/our-products/catalogue/residential/extract-fans/cyfan/

I'll set it to run in continuous mode and with the side spigot it will ventilate the washing machine cupboard that will also have a rail for drying clothes.

 

 

Fan B is to be :-

http://www.i-sells.co.uk/vent-axia-lo-carbon-tempra-selv-lt-single-room-hrv 

 

Seems I am to make the same mistake you made Ferdinand and have a drafty bath area with the room heat recovery fan beside the shower. 

Hopefully switching to summer by-pass when showering will be enough to keep any chills away and the tenants will leave the fan running.

 

[Nickfromwales]

As an aside, for the sake of 15mm why not get a 1700 bath and lose that horrible gap at the end ? You can cut into the wall and bury the non-business end with relative ease. 

[Ferdinand]

 

Will be interesting to compare photos with the LBB bathroom.

 

My wall is about the same length, and i put in a 1600 bath with the gap at the tap end boxed out slightly in MultiPanel to conceal shower plumbing, with a narrow piece siliconed on at the end to be removable with a Stanley knife to give  access.

 

The Lo Carbon Tempra has a summer bypass setting, does it? Is that inside the box?

 

It should be possible to set it to turn off when the light is on to save your tenants cold-flushes :-o .

 

btw, which drawing package did you use? I pointed my man at the bathroom, and after an initial conversation over  a tape measure, went and bought the stuff and more or less said "bathroom" "suite and taps" "please fit", with a few tactical adjustments along the way. Square the room was not.

 

This is the bathroom fan I am currently fitting:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00CJ8L8ZM/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

Ferdinand

 

Edited November 8, 2017 by Ferdinand

[DundeeDancer]

1 hour ago, Nickfromwales said:

As an aside, for the sake of 15mm why not get a 1700 bath and lose that horrible gap at the end ? You can cut into the wall and bury the non-business end with relative ease. 

 

I did float that idea with the architect, builder and plumber of cutting slightly into the wall but all of them were not keen on the idea.  There is nice tiles on those walls and the walls are of a cardboard/honeycomb/egg shell design so the tiles probably give the wall extra strength and cutting into the walls may weaken significantly so took the compromise of a shorter bath.

 

50 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

The Lo Carbon Tempra has a summer bypass setting, does it? Is that inside the box?

 

btw, which drawing package did you use? I pointed my man at the bathroom, and after an initial conversation over  a tape measure, went and bought the stuff and more or less said "bathroom" "suite and taps" "please fit", with a few tactical adjustments along the way. Square the room was not.

 

This is the bathroom fan I am currently fitting:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00CJ8L8ZM/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

Ferdinand

 

The Tempra that I have bought has slatted vents on the bottom underside edge that a push button lever closes.  That will stop most of the returning fresh heat recovered air back into the room.  Pushing that level will hopefully stop chills when showering as in effect the unit would just be running as an extractor fan.  Will soon find out

 

The drawing package I've been using is "Sweet Home 3D", it's free and very easy, very quick to use.

I did upgrade to the paid version from Amazon for approx. £15 and got extra widgets to play with, I'm just amazed at how useful it is  

Edited November 8, 2017 by DundeeDancer

[Ferdinand]

Aha.

 

That is the name for "the flap" . Now I know.

 

Cheers

F

Edited November 8, 2017 by Ferdinand

[DundeeDancer]

Finally got Nuaire Cyan and Vent-Axis Tempra fans operational after installing them on top of my own constructed face-plates.

 

In trickle mode the Cyan is almost silent but the Vent-Axis Tempra is quite noisy, so noisy that I am starting to think it might be faulty.

 

The Tempra specification says at 6 liters a second trickle mode that the sound produced should be 20 dB but it's much louder than that. I loaded an app onto my phone and that thinks it is around 33 dB.  Anyone else found the Tempra noisy?  Ferdinand?

 

On 11/8/2017 at 04:33, Ferdinand said:

My own policy is to install a Nuaire loft fan in all refurbs and a Vent-Axia Lo-Carbon Tempra with Remote Monitor potential so that I can guarantee (subject to T switch-off) a continuous flow of air through the house from top to bottom.

 

[Ferdinand]

 

14 hours ago, DundeeDancer said:

Finally got Nuaire Cyan and Vent-Axis Tempra fans operational after installing them on top of my own constructed face-plates.

 

In trickle mode the Cyan is almost silent but the Vent-Axis Tempra is quite noisy, so noisy that I am starting to think it might be faulty.

 

The Tempra specification says at 6 liters a second trickle mode that the sound produced should be 20 dB but it's much louder than that. I loaded an app onto my phone and that thinks it is around 33 dB.  Anyone else found the Tempra noisy?  Ferdinand?

 

 

 

I have several of the Low-Carbon Tempras installed and I have not had any complaints about noise over several years, and when I hear them in 6l/s mode I do not hear anything I consider unacceptable.

 

The only differences I can see is that yours is SELV the low voltage option and seems to be installed facing the end of a cupboard, but that should not make a difference surely since the airflow is not direct? Unless that tight corner is acting a# a noise reflected / amplifier.

 

But noise is unavoidably a very subjective thing. 

 

Ferdinand

 

[Ferdinand]

On 12/04/2018 at 11:27, DundeeDancer said:

Finally got Nuaire Cyan and Vent-Axis Tempra fans operational after installing them on top of my own constructed face-plates.

 

In trickle mode the Cyan is almost silent but the Vent-Axis Tempra is quite noisy, so noisy that I am starting to think it might be faulty.

 

The Tempra specification says at 6 liters a second trickle mode that the sound produced should be 20 dB but it's much louder than that. I loaded an app onto my phone and that thinks it is around 33 dB.  Anyone else found the Tempra noisy?  Ferdinand?

 

 

 

As to ways of reducing the noise level if it is unacceptable, I can think of

 

1 - Install a sound deadening material on the side of the cupboard, and possible the wall at the back to reduce reflection of noise, and airflow would be via top and bottom. On the side of the cupboard something like a trim strip on the edge would hide the material, though it is in the corner so not noticeable.

 

2 - You could also add a blanking panel across the front of the gap, either level with the cupboard - even a door that just looked like a narrow cupboard with hinges and a handle, or a panel just fastened on with spring clips and two cupboard handles on the outside so it can just be lifted off, or even a panel using perforated mdf like a radiator cover.corner could be like. A mini anechoic

 

Get the right stuff and that corner could be almost a mini anechoic chamber. Do you have any of that pyramid moulded type packing foam do use with say double sided tape to experiment?

 

Personally I think a trimmed down if necessary cupboard door plus appropriate sound absorbing material behind it would be the most elegant / effective.

 

HTH

 

Ferdinand

Edited April 13, 2018 by Ferdinand

[DundeeDancer]

10 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

I have several of the Low-Carbon Tempras installed and I have not had any complaints about noise over several years, and when I hear them in 6l/s mode I do not hear anything I consider unacceptable.

 

The only differences I can see is that yours is SELV the low voltage option and seems to be installed facing the end of a cupboard, but that should not make a difference surely since the airflow is not direct? Unless that tight corner is acting a# a noise reflected / amplifier.

 

But noise is unavoidably a very subjective thing. 

 

Ferdinand

 

Many thanks Ferdinand for your insight.  Very interesting to read that you find the noise acceptable.  It therefore makes me hopeful that it is my particular fan. As the fan is still in warranty I have asked for a replacement. I will therefore go to the effort of switching it over to see if a difference occurs. 

 

That will mean me wrestling with fitting the fan again but brings another opportunity to get it aligned exactly right with the fan body and sleeve pipe in the core hole.  That had proved more difficult than I had anticipated.  I think the problem being is I put the fan holes in the faceplate before the sleeve pipe was in place.  Should have done that part the other way about but to be honest not much tolerance to play with so a bit of a testing job fitting these units.

 

The Tempra is marked in green in my plan as Fan B, so it's in the bathroom and nothing nearby to reflect the noise.

 

As you mentioned before it does produce a bit of a draft when someone is bathing or showering but the fans couldn't be configured any other way due to pipe works in the black-box.  Maybe in 15 years time when the fans start to show there age I will replace with an MVHR system but that wasn't in the budget/schedule for this round of works.

 

Cheers DD 

[Ferdinand]

25 minutes ago, DundeeDancer said:

Many thanks Ferdinand for your insight.  Very interesting to read that you find the noise acceptable.  It therefore makes me hopeful that it is my particular fan. As the fan is still in warranty I have asked for a replacement. I will therefore go to the effort of switching it over to see if a difference occurs. 

 

That will mean me wrestling with fitting the fan again but brings another opportunity to get it aligned exactly right with the fan body and sleeve pipe in the core hole.  That had proved more difficult than I had anticipated.  I think the problem being is I put the fan holes in the faceplate before the sleeve pipe was in place.  Should have done that part the other way about but to be honest not much tolerance to play with so a bit of a testing job fitting these units.

 

The Tempra is marked in green in my plan as Fan B, so it's in the bathroom and nothing nearby to reflect the noise.

 

As you mentioned before it does produce a bit of a draft when someone is bathing or showering but the fans couldn't be configured any other way due to pipe works in the black-box.  Maybe in 15 years time when the fans start to show there age I will replace with an MVHR system but that wasn't in the budget/schedule for this round of works.

 

Cheers DD 

 

Aha .. I had it down as the other. People spend less time in bathrooms than kitchens, so perhaps that is more acceptable?

 

Half of my point is that extra noise may be acceptable to some people eg me and my handyman who did a lot of finishing type work while it was on trickle.

 

Brst of luck.

 

 

Edited April 13, 2018 by Ferdinand