Garald Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 As many of you know too well, I had a Mitsubishi Ecodan heat pump installed as part of a broader renovation. While it has adaptive heating, I've just set its operating system at 45 C (which is the temperature I did the calculations for). There was a bit of a cold wave at the beginning of January (I'm in the Paris area - maybe you felt it too), so the heat pump has been hard at work. Here's the data I just read off the heat pump: energy consumed energy produced December 583 kWh 2122 kWh January 883 kWh 2698 kWh In other words, the average COP for December and January was 3.64 and 3.06, respectively. Needless to say, this is somewhat disappointing; the statistics are what I would expect for a working temperature of 55 C, not 45 C. How do I keep closer tabs on how much energy the heat pump is using every day? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garald Posted February 2 Author Share Posted February 2 (edited) As in: I've seen some people here somehow hook up a heat pump to a computer and get extremely detailed information. How does one do that? I see that (if I buy a WiFi device from Mitsubishi) I could download an application called MELCloud. However, it's unclear from the description that it gives this sort of detailed information. Folks here seem to have access to graphs showing precisely what a heat pump is doing at a given moment. Edited February 2 by Garald Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelvin Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 Did your system come with a WiFi adapter to allow you to connect it to MELcloud which can provide detailed energy consumption. I’ve not connected mine yet so no idea how comprehensive it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyT Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 You could connect the pump up to a Shelly power monitor, will give you power/energy readings, you could also add the add on unit to the power meter that lets you add 5 x temp sensors so you could monitor flow/return etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary68 Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 You haven't stated what size Ecodan unit you have but your COP's look pretty spot on to me at 45C. The 2nd bottom line on the plot on the right is COP at 45C when its 2C outside which is probably about right for Jan on average, so you should get a COP of 3 at 45C which is exactly what you are getting. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garald Posted February 2 Author Share Posted February 2 25 minutes ago, Gary68 said: You haven't stated what size Ecodan unit you have but your COP's look pretty spot on to me at 45C. It's an Ecodan Split Zubadan Silence 12kW (1PH R32; not sure what "1PH" means). It advertises: - a COP of 4.85 at 35C operating temperature (whereas the leftmost bit of the top line in the above graph is at 4.4). - a SCOP (a weighted seasonal average, but what are the weights?) of 4.61 at 35C and 3.51 at 55C. Where did you get those beautiful graphs - and what temperature does each line correspond to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joth Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 46 minutes ago, Kelvin said: Did your system come with a WiFi adapter to allow you to connect it to MELcloud which can provide detailed energy consumption. I’ve not connected mine yet so no idea how comprehensive it is. MELcloud is very limited in the info it provides, a few graphs but little in the way of numbers, and no COP. Part of the issue is the underlying modbus interface to FTC6 only reports power at kW precision (which is little better than an on/off signal for lower power devices). The previous day usage is reported in Wh to high precision but no good for understanding behaviour through the day. To get good tracking I'd be looking at a separate device but it would mean plumbing in an additional flow sensor. (Unless the signal from the FTC one can be split, I may actually investigate that possibility) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joth Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 11 minutes ago, Garald said: It's an Ecodan Split Zubadan Silence 12kW (1PH R32; not sure what "1PH" means). It advertises: - a COP of 4.85 at 35C operating temperature (whereas the leftmost bit of the top line in the above graph is at 4.4). - a SCOP (a weighted seasonal average, but what are the weights?) of 4.61 at 35C and 3.51 at 55C. Where did you get those beautiful graphs - and what temperature does each line correspond to? Look for the ecodan data book, perhaps here https://www.mitsubishi-les.info/database/servicemanual/files/201803_ATW_DATABOOK.pdf Page 100 onwards, you need the exact model number. 1PH means single phase (not 3 phase) The best case COP is at air temp 15° so irrelevant this time of year. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary68 Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 The plots are from the Mitsubishi web library, they are for an 8.5kw unit so not the same as yours and they are the COPs at an operating temps of 45C (not 35C) which is what you said you were running your unit at. The lines are at ambient temps of 15, 7, 2 and -7C The COP's are only a guide you can't take them at face value they are at laboratory test conditions but you should get in the same ball park which you are. These are the charts for the 12KW unit the first is at 35C the 2nd 45C so at 2C the 2nd bottom line you should be getting between 3-3.5 depending on whether you are running at 35 or 45C which is what you are getting 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilT Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 (edited) 9 hours ago, Garald said: As many of you know too well, I had a Mitsubishi Ecodan heat pump installed as part of a broader renovation. While it has adaptive heating, I've just set its operating system at 45 C (which is the temperature I did the calculations for). There was a bit of a cold wave at the beginning of January (I'm in the Paris area - maybe you felt it too), so the heat pump has been hard at work. Here's the data I just read off the heat pump: energy consumed energy produced December 583 kWh 2122 kWh January 883 kWh 2698 kWh In other words, the average COP for December and January was 3.64 and 3.06, respectively. Needless to say, this is somewhat disappointing; the statistics are what I would expect for a working temperature of 55 C, not 45 C. How do I keep closer tabs on how much energy the heat pump is using every day? Since November I switched to Target Room Temperature (Auto Adaptive) mode (was previously using WC) and my COP figures are better than last year (like for like average internal/external temps) by at least 15%. Furthermore the Mitsubishi Auto Adaptive software manages the heat pump operation in a more intelligent and efficient way to get the best out of it, for example gentler start ups, longer runs, automatic compensation for defrost cycles, with flow temperatures rarely going above 40degC even at -5degC outside. My FTC6 reported COP figures are Input Output COP Nov 483 2009 4.2 Dec 558 2342 4.2 Jan 698 2724 3.9 This is for an 8mm microbore fed radiator circuit with two pumps (primary+secondary) via a low loss header. Ecodan R32 11.2kW My house daily average temperature is 20degC +/-0.5 NB you need a Mitsubishi Wireless controller and receiver to be able to use Auto Adaptive mode Edited February 2 by PhilT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garald Posted February 2 Author Share Posted February 2 49 minutes ago, joth said: Look for the ecodan data book, perhaps here https://www.mitsubishi-les.info/database/servicemanual/files/201803_ATW_DATABOOK.pdf Page 100 onwards, you need the exact model number. Right, and I am not finding the model PUD-SHWM120VAA. Is it like a cat, which goes by three different names? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garald Posted February 2 Author Share Posted February 2 (edited) 45 minutes ago, PhilT said: Since November I switched to Target Room Temperature (Auto Adaptive) mode (was previously using WC) and my COP figures are better than last year (like for like average internal/external temps) by at least 15%. Furthermore the Mitsubishi Auto Adaptive software manages the heat pump operation in a more intelligent and efficient way to get the best out of it, for example gentler start ups, longer runs, automatic compensation for defrost cycles, with flow temperatures rarely going above 40degC even at -5degC outside. My FTC6 reported COP figures are Input Output COP Nov 483 2009 4.2 Dec 558 2342 4.2 Jan 698 2724 3.9 This is for an 8mm microbore fed radiator circuit with two pumps (primary+secondary) via a low loss header. Ecodan R32 11.2kW My house daily average temperature is 20degC +/-0.5 NB you need a Mitsubishi Wireless controller and receiver to be able to use Auto Adaptive mode Ah, interesting. I just noticed yesterday that the heat pump does seem to offer me something that looks like an auto-adaptive mode. I have no idea of whether a Wifi adapter is already installed (the bill lists an "Option wifi, compatible avec les solutions domotiques" - I'll have to ask whether that means the controller is already there or whether it just means it's something I can have installed), but I do have a little thermostat/controller that I can move around (it currently sits in my library/main room, which is also the warmest room). Would that be enough? And what are you using to check that flow temperatures rarely go above 40 deg C? I calculated radiator size with a good margin of safety, so "rarely going above 40degC even at -5degC outside" sounds like a realistic goal for me (congratulations for achieving it). Edited February 2 by Garald Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilT Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 6 minutes ago, Garald said: Ah, interesting. I just noticed yesterday that the heat pump does seem to offer me something that looks like an auto-adaptive mode. I have no idea of whether a Wifi adapter is already installed (the bill lists an "Option wifi, compatible avec les solutions domotiques" - I'll have to ask whether that means the controller is already there or whether it just means it's something I can have installed), but I do have a little thermostat/controller that I can move around (it currently sits in my library/main room, which is also the warmest room). Would that be enough? And what are you using to check that flow temperatures rarely go above 40 deg C? I calculated radiator size with a good margin of safety, so "rarely going above 40degC even at -5degC outside" sounds like a realistic goal for me (congratulations for achieving it). It's this thing https://les.mitsubishielectric.co.uk/products/residential-heating/control/wireless-controller-and-receiver To check flow temps and lots of other stuff I use the Melcloud app - both phone and PC version Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garald Posted February 2 Author Share Posted February 2 5 minutes ago, PhilT said: It's this thing https://les.mitsubishielectric.co.uk/products/residential-heating/control/wireless-controller-and-receiver To check flow temps and lots of other stuff I use the Melcloud app - both phone and PC version Ah yes, I have that. Does that mean I can also use the Melcloud app? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary68 Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 Yes it does but it won't show you COP it will show you the flow temperatures you are running though hour by hour for the past 24 hours. Is there a reason you are running at 45C constantly, you need to turn on auto adapt and set your weather compensation curve up to get the best COP at milder temperatures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garald Posted February 2 Author Share Posted February 2 3 minutes ago, Gary68 said: Yes it does but it won't show you COP it will show you the flow temperatures you are running though hour by hour for the past 24 hours. Is there a reason you are running at 45C constantly, you need to turn on auto adapt and set your weather compensation curve up to get the best COP at milder temperatures. No reason - I thought I had set up a weather compensation curve (for some reason it lets me change only one parameter, not several - do I need to do something to get further control) but fixed matters at 45C by mistake, as I now realize. Aren't the weather compensation curve and auto-adapt two different modes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilT Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 (edited) Yes but Target Room Temp (Auto Adaptive) mode uses the WC curve as a baseline then overlays other forms of control - mainly varying the flow temp according to the difference between actual and target room temp, such that as target room temp is approached the flow temp is modulated until an equilibrium is achieved, allowing the longest possible heat pump runs. When you first start using Auto mode it takes a few days to "learn" how your room temp responds to flow temps, but eventually settles down to a steady state. Edited February 2 by PhilT 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilT Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 50 minutes ago, Garald said: Does that mean I can also use the Melcloud app? You can get a rough idea of COP from the Melcloud app by looking at the "Reports" / "Energy Usage" charts, which give graphical results for input and output energy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary68 Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 If you can see the thermometers and water drop next to the flow temp on your controller screen then you are running at a fixed flow temp, yours should look like this we 45C if you are running at a fixed flow of 45C If you can see a graph curve next to the +/-0C then you are running in weather compensation If you can see a house with a thermometer in it next to what is the set room temp then that is auto adapt mode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilT Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 I see Mitsubishi now offer an Ecodan R290 version but only up to 8kW, flow temp up to 75degC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garald Posted February 2 Author Share Posted February 2 11 minutes ago, Gary68 said: If you can see the thermometers and water drop next to the flow temp on your controller screen then you are running at a fixed flow temp, yours should look like this we 45C if you are running at a fixed flow of 45C If you can see a graph curve next to the +/-0C then you are running in weather compensation If you can see a house with a thermometer in it next to what is the set room temp then that is auto adapt mode. Right, exactly. I am in fixed flow temp mode (at 45 C), I intended to be in weather compensation form (but never figured out how to set up the curve properly, or perhaps the heat pump didn't like my dragging one end all the way down to -30C), and I'll just switch to auto adapt mode, stop worrying and save money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary68 Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 Auto adapt uses your weather comp curve so it needs to be setup for your house, if 45C worked for you when it was coldest you have one end of the curve you just need to set the other end and see how it goes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garald Posted February 2 Author Share Posted February 2 13 minutes ago, Gary68 said: Auto adapt uses your weather comp curve so it needs to be setup for your house, if 45C worked for you when it was coldest you have one end of the curve you just need to set the other end and see how it goes The problem is that for some mysterious reason the heat pump display doesn't allow me to have full control of the curve: Also, I've been able to locate the adapter (see pic below) that enables me to use the remote-control thermostat, but I don't see any information on it that would enable me to connect the heat-pump to the Internet and in particular to MELCloud. Do I need a different adapter? Or is the connectivity information hidden somewhere? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garald Posted February 2 Author Share Posted February 2 On a different note - I think I may have improved my shower settings (improved for my comfort, possibly destroying the planet in the process and/or doing very minor damage to my wallet) by accident while fiddling with the settings yesterday. The maximum temperature in my shower is usually acceptable but sort of lukewarm (mid-30s). Now and then it behaves like a proper hot shower without warning. This morning the temperature was glorious (mid-40s?) - my girlfriend was delighted. This is what my settings look like now. Is everything in order? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilT Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 You are in "read only" mode. If you want to change any settings, from the FTC6 main home screen you need to press and hold the bottom left button for a few seconds. After that the domestic hot water settings window on the left in your last photo above will also show an edit symbol next to the two arrows in a circle. You should then also be able to change your WC settings. There are several YouTube videos on how to do this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now