Kingspan Heat Pump Problem

[Ivon]

Hi all.

 

I was just having a tinker trying to get out heat pump back up and running and noticed it's coming up with a different fault. 

 

The diagnostic indicator is coming up with the following;

 

1 flash - no idea what this means, there is nothing on the fault codes for 1 flash.

 

Off for 2 seconds;

 

4 flashes - Actual refrigerant sensor BPHE (TR) Failure/Out of range.

 

Does anyone know what these mean and how I can test it?

 

Thanks in advance. 

 

 

[Jeremy Harris]

Do you have the Command Unit fitted?  If so, you can enter diagnostic mode and look at the parameters and fault codes on the screen, rather than on the flashing fault LED, which makes things a LOT easier.  The Carrier Command Unit look exactly like this (but with a Kingspan logo on bottom of the front cover, rather than the Glow worm logo on this one):

 

 

Do you have the external LED diagnostic extension box fitted, or are you looking at the LEDs on the internal board?  If the latter, then pages 22, 23 and 24 of this manual (which may be the same as you already have) might help:

 

Kingspan_Aeromax_plus_Installation.pdf

 

 

Edited September 13, 2017 by JSHarris

[Ivon]

1 minute ago, JSHarris said:

Do you have the Command Unit fitted?  If so, you can enter diagnostic mode and look at the parameters and fault codes on the screen, rather than on the flashing fault LED, which makes things a LOT easier.  The Carrier Command Unit look exactly like this (but with a Kingspan logo on bottom of the front cover, rather than the Glow worm logo on this one):

 

 

Do you have the external LED diagnostic extension box fitted, or are you looking at the LEDs on the internal board?  If the latter, then pages 22, 23 and 24 of this manual (which may be the same as you already have) might help:

 

Kingspan_Aeromax_plus_Installation.pdf

 

 

Thanks, I have had the diagnostic indicator, the fault codes are what I picked up from that manual.

 

 

[Jeremy Harris]

If you can borrow a Command Unit, then you can hook it up with four core cable to the external unit and get a lot more information as to what is going on.  The snag is that the Command Unit is quite expensive, and often wasn't supplied as standard with some systems.  Attached is a copy of the Carrier Command unit manual that give some insight as to both the diagnostic information available and, more importantly, the system settings.  It is the latter that are usually the cause of poor performance, by default Kingspan (and others that badged these same units) didn't seem to re-programme them for UK conditions very well, if at all.  Without the Command Unit the unit cannot be reprogrammed, AFAIK.

 

Carrier Controller Installation Manual - 33awcs1.pdf

[Ivon]

1 hour ago, JSHarris said:

If you can borrow a Command Unit, then you can hook it up with four core cable to the external unit and get a lot more information as to what is going on.  The snag is that the Command Unit is quite expensive, and often wasn't supplied as standard with some systems.  Attached is a copy of the Carrier Command unit manual that give some insight as to both the diagnostic information available and, more importantly, the system settings.  It is the latter that are usually the cause of poor performance, by default Kingspan (and others that badged these same units) didn't seem to re-programme them for UK conditions very well, if at all.  Without the Command Unit the unit cannot be reprogrammed, AFAIK.

 

Carrier Controller Installation Manual - 33awcs1.pdf

Thanks for the reply. I think I need to get the unit working before I spend money on a command unit.

 

It was working with the settings it had until it needed regassing.

 

This has now been done but the above fault is now tripping out the unit.

[Ivon]

Looking at the fault code from the Carrier Comand unit, if it's the same, 4 flashes then it's the same fault code, Refrigerant sensor failure/out of range.

[Jeremy Harris]

It may well be that whatever fault caused the unit to need re-gassing is still present, or it could be that the unit has just been incorrectly filled, perhaps with too much, or too little, refrigerant, and is consequently tripping because it's under/over pressure.  It could be that the sensor is faulty, but given the history of the unit having been run very hard, with settings that will have caused the 4 way valve to operate frequently and the compressor to run for long periods of time, I suspect that there's something else going on.

 

The same (or extremely similar) compressor and primary circuit is used in a range of Carrier air conditioning units, so a good air con engineer, who's familiar with Carrier equipment (most should be, they are a pretty big company; Willis Carrier was the inventor of air conditioning) might well be able to get to the bottom of the fault.  Best to tell whoever you can find that although the unit is badged Kingspan, it is really a Carrier 30 AWH series: http://www.carrieraircon.co.uk/product/30awh-004-015-aquasnap-plus-heat-pumps-4-15kw/

[Ivon]

That's fantastic, it should give me plenty to go with.

 

Many thanks.

[Ivon]

Well I'm please to say I've got the pump up and running.

 

I swapped over a couple of thermistors, checked block connectors and the pulse motor valve.

 

That seems to have done the trick and the heat pump is working better than ever. Just wish it would have worked a year ago.

 

The only thing to do now once it's had a proper run and I'm confident it ok is look at fitting a control unit and replace the inhibitor/antifreeze in the wet side. A bloody mole came up under the pump and closed one of the isolation valves blowing of the return line and resulting in the system draining all over the gstden. What are the chances of that! We don't have moles any more....

Edited September 14, 2017 by Ivon
Edit

[Jeremy Harris]

That's good news.  Having a mole turn a valve off has to be a first, though!

[Alexphd1]

The cheapest I have found the control unit is on mytub.co.uk 

[Ivon]

On 14/09/2017 at 08:05, JSHarris said:

That's good news.  Having a mole turn a valve off has to be a first, though!

Little bugger was attracted to the vibrations of the pump. Couldn't believe it, took me ages to work out what had gone on.

[Ivon]

On 14/09/2017 at 08:57, Alexphd1 said:

The cheapest I have found the control unit is on mytub.co.uk 

Thanks, I'll take a look.

[Ivon]

On 14/09/2017 at 08:57, Alexphd1 said:

The cheapest I have found the control unit is on mytub.co.uk 

Do you have a link or a part number. I've looked on my tub but can't seem to pin it down? 

 

Thanks.

[Guest Alphonsox]

8 minutes ago, Ivon said:

Do you have a link or a part number. I've looked on my tub but can't seem to pin it down? 

 

Thanks.

 

Try ;-

https://www.mytub.co.uk/carrier-unit-interface-33aw-cs1-33aw-cs1b-product-724847

 

also a Kingspan branded version on ebay

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/KINGSPAN-AEROMAX-AIR-SOURCE-HEAT-PUMP-USER-INTERFACE-CONTROLLER-last-one-/172859509061?hash=item283f3ac945:g:8c4AAOSw9GhYe3NR

[Guest Alphonsox]

I imported my unit from a plumbing outfit in Germany when exchange rates were better (don't think they are still available). Another member (@joe90) got one directly from Carrier UK.

[Alexphd1]

Some one bet me to it. I am always holding out for finding a cheap one on eBay but no luck yet.

[Ivon]

Thanks for the replies. How far off are the factory settings?

 

My heat pump seems to be working better than it ever has since I tinkered with it, it hasn't ran for 12 months including all winter last year. We had panel heaters dotted around the place along with our stove and Aircon downstairs. At the moment the pump is heating the house great, even though we have extended the house over 80% of its original size after the heat pump was sized and fitted.

 

Our 6kw pump is heating our 1400 sq/f house, even though it got down to about 6 degrees last night. 

 

To think it almost got chucked in the skip! 

[Jeremy Harris]

The main problem is that the usual default setting may have the heat pump trying to deliver flow temperatures in excess of 50 deg C, and they will frost up a lot at this sort of flow temperature when the weather hits the critical temperature and humidity region for icing, around 4 deg C or so in damp or misty weather.

 

I found, by doing a lot of experiments, that setting the weather compensation curve such that the flow temperature never exceeds 40 deg C ensures that there is virtually no defrosting at all, and this gives a much better COP, as well as reducing wear and tear on the compressor and 4 way valve.

 

I have mine set for a flat compensation curve, using the custom settings that the Command Unit allows.  My unit is set to deliver 40 deg C flow temperature no matter what the outside air temperature is, and that seems to work extremely well for our installation.

[Alexphd1]

Remember if you do buy a controller and it doesn't work out, remember your friends here?? 

[Ivon]

2 hours ago, JSHarris said:

The main problem is that the usual default setting may have the heat pump trying to deliver flow temperatures in excess of 50 deg C, and they will frost up a lot at this sort of flow temperature when the weather hits the critical temperature and humidity region for icing, around 4 deg C or so in damp or misty weather.

 

I found, by doing a lot of experiments, that setting the weather compensation curve such that the flow temperature never exceeds 40 deg C ensures that there is virtually no defrosting at all, and this gives a much better COP, as well as reducing wear and tear on the compressor and 4 way valve.

 

I have mine set for a flat compensation curve, using the custom settings that the Command Unit allows.  My unit is set to deliver 40 deg C flow temperature no matter what the outside air temperature is, and that seems to work extremely well for our installation.

Do you use your pump for hot water or just heating?

[Jeremy Harris]

17 minutes ago, Ivon said:

Do you use your pump for hot water or just heating?

 

 

Both, but we only preheat the DHW with the heat pump, then boost it a bit, using either a charged Sunamp PV thermal battery, or a 12 kW thermostatic instant water heater, to get the 35 to 40 deg C preheated hot water up to 42 deg C minimum, typically around 50 to 55 deg C when the system is fully charged.

 

The underfloor heating only needs water at around 25 deg C maximum, so the ASHP output is mixed down with a thermostatic mixer valve to lower the temperature a bit.

[Gone West]

On 15/09/2017 at 18:01, Ivon said:

Little bugger was attracted to the vibrations of the pump. Couldn't believe it, took me ages to work out what had gone on.

Bit of an aside, but that's very interesting. We're plagued with moles at times and if I knew what the frequency of the vibrations was perhaps I could build a better trap.

[Ivon]

On 17/09/2017 at 08:19, PeterStarck said:

Bit of an aside, but that's very interesting. We're plagued with moles at times and if I knew what the frequency of the vibrations was perhaps I could build a better trap.

Our neighbors are having an extension built and are inundated with moles at the minute. 

[joe90]

I bought my controller from a Carrier depot in Southampton, forgot what I paid for it.