2 port valves location?

[Super_Paulie]

would i be right in thinking that a bypass radiator return tee'd in below the height of the last rad would make the radiator circuit warm by reverse circulation? i guess the only way out would be a separate return like the UFH return, higher than the last rad?

[Super_Paulie]

this drawing might be more accurate. I guess the solution is a separate tee just for the bypass rad as i assume the bypass return needs to be the highest back to the boiler.

 

Edited July 5, 2023 by Super_Paulie

[Super_Paulie]

sorry for the spam guys, guilty as charged.

In fact... i can tee this into the UFH return before that returns back to the primary return surely? The bypass rad wont return circulate into the rad circuit because the UFH doesnt come back in until after the height of the last rad?

[Super_Paulie]

On 28/06/2023 at 16:09, Nickfromwales said:

Yup. No issues there, but why not install a buffer now? 

 

These can be compact and fit into tight places. This one’s a 50L wall mounted version. 

 

this thing is heavier than id imagined!

[Nickfromwales]

2 hours ago, Super_Paulie said:

this thing is heavier than id imagined!

3 shredded wheat time for you, lol.

If you look at the pic I posted, I made brackets up from 25x5mm steel flat bar (drilled and tapped for the cylinder brackets to be affixed) and screwed the lot into the structure. That's going nowhere fast!

 

Just remember to install the unions before you wall-mount it!

[Super_Paulie]

2 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

3 shredded wheat time for you, lol.

If you look at the pic I posted, I made brackets up from 25x5mm steel flat bar (drilled and tapped for the cylinder brackets to be affixed) and screwed the lot into the structure. That's going nowhere fast!

 

Just remember to install the unions before you wall-mount it!

yeah ive been looking at your drawing and ordering up the gear i need for the weekend. 1.1/4 bushes down to 1" then compression elbows. I assume i need a bottle vent or similar for the top of this thing and a drain at the bottom?

[Nickfromwales]

Just now, Super_Paulie said:

yeah ive been looking at your drawing and ordering up the gear i need for the weekend. 1.1/4 bushes down to 1" then compression elbows. I assume i need a bottle vent or similar for the top of this thing and a drain at the bottom?

Yup, and Yup  

[Super_Paulie]

6 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

Yup, and Yup  

cant thank you guys enough for all the info, its keeping me on the straight and narrow (hopefully). If you have a moment can you cast your eye on this drawing @Nickfromwales to let me know im on the right lines with all of this? mainly because i dont know anyone how has used a buffer tank or who has UFH so getting answers from pals is non-existent.

also:
a) using the buffer as 2-port, am i right in thinking that you need the return connection top and bottom rather than say both coming in at the bottom or does it not matter?
b) how do i fill the thing, just via the filling loop on the boiler?

Multiple pints are owed due to all the info from you lads.

[Nickfromwales]

5 hours ago, Super_Paulie said:

cant thank you guys enough for all the info, its keeping me on the straight and narrow (hopefully). If you have a moment can you cast your eye on this drawing @Nickfromwales to let me know im on the right lines with all of this? mainly because i dont know anyone how has used a buffer tank or who has UFH so getting answers from pals is non-existent.

also:
a) using the buffer as 2-port, am i right in thinking that you need the return connection top and bottom rather than say both coming in at the bottom or does it not matter?
b) how do i fill the thing, just via the filling loop on the boiler?

Multiple pints are owed due to all the info from you lads.

Yup, all looks kosher  I'd look at a retro-fit hot water cylinder insulated jacket on eBay etc and wrap that buffer up to the nth degree, just a shame it couldn't be in the heated envelope somewhere. 

FYI, you can tee the returns into each other wherever they are easiest to do so.

Top and bottom and diagonally opposite is best, but it could be piped top & bottom entry with both pipes the same side if it made things massively easier, tbh.

Fills up with the rest of the system off the filling loop, yes. Remember to manually crank the zone valves to the fill / drain position (via the lever on the side of the valve) when filling or draining.

 

For the ground floor and 1st floor rads, will these all have TRV's on each rad, and will they likely all be at least a % open whenever the heating is turned on / calling? I'd say that would be a yes. If so, I'd suggest fitting a 3-port valve, located up at the buffer, to prevent it from being heated (and wasting heat) unnecessarily eg if the 2-port zone valve for 'rads' is open ergo no short-cycling.

In a nutshell, you can then choose whether the buffer is 'in play' or 'bypassed', and this is a doddle to do. You just power up the 3-port off the same wire that opens the 2-port for rads, so it 'flip-flops' between the 2 states. All you need to do is buy a 3-port diverter (NOT a 'mid-position' 3-port) and Bob & Fanny are yours for the taking   

Rads ZV = closed means buffer is in play, and vice versa. Should make this as energy efficient as you'll ever get it 👍.

 

BH buffer pic.pdf

 

Edit: wiring may be far simplified if you use 2x 2-port at the buffer, but my brains a bit fried, been a long day.

 

Edit #2: Scratch that, the 3-port is spring return so all good to use 1x 3-port for this  . Beer o'clock I think.....

[Super_Paulie]

On 07/07/2023 at 19:55, Nickfromwales said:

Yup, all looks kosher  I'd look at a retro-fit hot water cylinder insulated jacket on eBay etc and wrap that buffer up to the nth degree, just a shame it couldn't be in the heated envelope somewhere. 

FYI, you can tee the returns into each other wherever they are easiest to do so.

Top and bottom and diagonally opposite is best, but it could be piped top & bottom entry with both pipes the same side if it made things massively easier, tbh.

Fills up with the rest of the system off the filling loop, yes. Remember to manually crank the zone valves to the fill / drain position (via the lever on the side of the valve) when filling or draining.

 

For the ground floor and 1st floor rads, will these all have TRV's on each rad, and will they likely all be at least a % open whenever the heating is turned on / calling? I'd say that would be a yes. If so, I'd suggest fitting a 3-port valve, located up at the buffer, to prevent it from being heated (and wasting heat) unnecessarily eg if the 2-port zone valve for 'rads' is open ergo no short-cycling.

In a nutshell, you can then choose whether the buffer is 'in play' or 'bypassed', and this is a doddle to do. You just power up the 3-port off the same wire that opens the 2-port for rads, so it 'flip-flops' between the 2 states. All you need to do is buy a 3-port diverter (NOT a 'mid-position' 3-port) and Bob & Fanny are yours for the taking   

Rads ZV = closed means buffer is in play, and vice versa. Should make this as energy efficient as you'll ever get it 👍.

 

BH buffer pic.pdf 566.98 kB · 6 downloads

 

Edit: wiring may be far simplified if you use 2x 2-port at the buffer, but my brains a bit fried, been a long day.

 

Edit #2: Scratch that, the 3-port is spring return so all good to use 1x 3-port for this  . Beer o'clock I think.....

Hell of an idea that @Nickfromwales Any suggestions on which diverter? Most I can see are mid way valves, please don't say it's another Honeywell as my wallet is getting very light!

 

Over the weekend I got everything piped up and the tank mounted on the wall/chimney breast, just needs It's connections to the return. It's 100mm off the loft floor so jammed some celotex underneath it to ease my worries of it falling off, which it won't as it's well on there.

[Super_Paulie]

🤞

[Nickfromwales]

£55? Cheaper than shoplifting 👍. 
Get it bought, get it fitted, winner winner chicken dinner 👌

[Super_Paulie]

10 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

£55? Cheaper than shoplifting 👍. 
Get it bought, get it fitted, winner winner chicken dinner 👌

done!

One annoying thing i found with that tank, all the fittings went in absolutely fine except the bottom one. The bush i got, 1" to 1/2 simply wouldnt go in. The one on the top fine, the 4 on the sides, 1 1/4 - 1/2, totally fine. The threads are all intact but for the love of god no bush or fitting would go in, just bound up immediately. The tech specs say its a 1" but something isnt right. What i did find was that a compression-fitting stopcock tap i had that was a 25mm MDPE to 22mm fit in, removed the nut/olive etc and the threaded section of the 25mm end screwed in and was water tight. No idea what went on there, but it was a rough few hours. So i guess i need to find a fitting to suit.

[Super_Paulie]

Ok well this is driving me daft, see above. The 1" bush or any 1" fitting I have simply won't go in the supposed 1" bottom socket. The only thing I can get in is an old mdpe 25mm stop tap.

 

I ordered what I thought would do the job, a 25mm to 15mm coupler. No dice, the threads are totally wrong and its no where near the right size. Honestly I'm going round in circles here, really open to any great ideas people might have? @Nickfromwales any ideas?

[Super_Paulie]

Only thing that remotely fits is this. It's wobbly on the way in but it holds water with PTFE on the threads.

[Super_Paulie]

I've bought a 1" tap to see if it needs recutting. Fingers crossed as I'm proper sick of this job now!

[Nickfromwales]

3 hours ago, Super_Paulie said:

I've bought a 1" tap to see if it needs recutting. Fingers crossed as I'm proper sick of this job now!

Sorry, only now seeing this. 
FWIW, I think it must be a duff thread. Try cutting it with the tap, but don’t do it in anger! Take your time, suck it up, and keep your chin up. 👍

Let us know how you get on.

[dpmiller]

Any chance it's 7/8" BSP as used on old outside taps?

[Super_Paulie]

2 hours ago, dpmiller said:

Any chance it's 7/8" BSP as used on old outside taps?

the technical document say the top and bottom are both 1" but i beg to differ. Even the stopper that came out was marked 1". I'll see how far i dare with the tap, it might just be the top thread that has a manufacturing flaw, fingers crossed. 

[Nickfromwales]

1 hour ago, Super_Paulie said:

the technical document say the top and bottom are both 1" but i beg to differ. Even the stopper that came out was marked 1". I'll see how far i dare with the tap, it might just be the top thread that has a manufacturing flaw, fingers crossed. 

Was this a second hand unit or new? Did you buy this off that eBay seller? 

[Super_Paulie]

18 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

Was this a second hand unit or new? Did you buy this off that eBay seller? 

yeah i did, but it was listed as new, still had all the bungs in place. Not totally unbelievable that the seller realised the same thing as i found, but all the bungs were unmarked. I borderline had to destroy them to get them out so i dont think they had ever been removed.

[dpmiller]

Are all the fittings you've tried BSP? Might be worth trying an iron BSPT fitting in, it could well go in better and if necessary will massage the thread slightly. I wouldn't risk a tap coz if it actually *is* a different thread you'll possibly scrap it...

[Super_Paulie]

4 minutes ago, dpmiller said:

Are all the fittings you've tried BSP? Might be worth trying an iron BSPT fitting in, it could well go in better and if necessary will massage the thread slightly. I wouldn't risk a tap coz if it actually *is* a different thread you'll possibly scrap it...

yeah all other ports are BSP, go in like a dream. Not a bad shout though, but looks like its not something i can pick up on my way home from work sadly. I'll see what i can come up with. Cheers fella.

[Nickfromwales]

3 hours ago, Super_Paulie said:

yeah all other ports are BSP, go in like a dream. Not a bad shout though, but looks like its not something i can pick up on my way home from work sadly. I'll see what i can come up with. Cheers fella.

Maybe a taper fitting? 

[Super_Paulie]

I've ordered a tapered fitting to try it out. I've got the tap but I think it's just making things worse. Glad I started this... Literally should have screwed in and job done!