What if you want a 3 gang dimmer with Loxone? And maaaany other things...

[BartW]

Hi,

Thanks for looking. This is just a preamble to a barrage of questions regarding smart home electrics.

 

Basically, I am trying to decide whether fully integrated smart home is for me.

 

Here is my quick rundown of what I need, and how I see integration:

 

- smoke alarms - this needs to be upgraded standalone system that is Grade C category LD1, so no way would it be integrated with anything smart.

 

- CCTV - same as the above. I can't see it being part of the smart system. It will be just 4 external IP cams with POE and NVR recorder. Nothing fancy. Separate app controls, I would imagine.

 

- TV - I initially thought HD Base T, but concluded that each of the TVs will just have Freeview, and a choice of a dongle(s) like Amazon Fire and Apple TV. We are not massive TV people, and this is all we need.

 

- Sockets - nothing fancy obviously. and nothing else.

 

- Internet - one router connected to OFNL + some hard wired wifi extenders around the house, hidden in ceilings, or storages.

 

- AV Hub - there is only need for one. And that is in the Living Room. It will have a soundbar and a hardwired subwoofer. Or maybe some speakers in the furniture.

 

Now, here is where my dilemmas start:

 

- smart blinds - it would have been Somfy Tahoma with its own app. All set once and optionally shouted at via Alexa configured through IFTTT. If I choose Likes of Loxone, then I would need 11 x blinds motors @ around £200 + VAT each. I imagine I would need Relay extension. Can I control blinds up and down by a simple DC reverse, or would this be two channels per blind motor, and thus A LOOT of relay units?

 

- smart heating - it could be Wunda Trade smart actuators, hub, and room stats. Or I could buy Loxone ones @ £79 + VAT each. I would need 14 ports. That is a lot of actuators, and equally even more relays and extensions... Am I right in saying the temperature control could be had by 

 

- MVHR - can I somehow integrate that? I have a Zehnder Q350 with ComfoPost12 coming. Can I send triggers from movement sensors in bathrooms via a relay in Loxone to switch on boost? Does Humidity sensor in the super expensive Loxone switches allow me to pick up a reading through DI / tree, and assign signal to a relay output if RHI goes above a certain figure?

 

- around the house speakers - There would be 11 speakers around the house, and these could be seperate Sonos amps (I would buy used ones), or Loxone Miniserver + some stereo extensions, and of course speakers. 

 

 

- Lighting - The plan is to use non-smart lamps and spotlights, as well as 12/24V drivers for LED tapes. Loxone Tree switches (especially the Pure) look really sexy. But am I right in thinking that @ £234 + VAT I am essentially buying a single (1 gang) switch? What if I need a 3 gang? And slave units by the bed for his/ hers / spotlights / LED? That sounds like a lot of switches per room, right? And if I consider Faradite Tap-5, then that's 5 digital inputs per switch. Time that @ number of rooms, and I am starting to create a control room rather than DIN cupboard for all of the "hub" gubbins. Am I missing something here?

 

Whilst I can swallow £3k for the blinds, £1500 for heating controls, and another £2k for audio, without even doing the proper maths I arrive at a whooping figure of about £10k for lighting alone, EXCLUDING light fittings. Am I being mad to even consider???

 

Help please? 

 

I am starting to arrive at a conclusion that perhaps individual "mini-smart" solutions are just as capable. Although, as clear from the above, I can't think of one solution that would be good for lighting and dimming. 

 

I guess I should have formed my subject question more to the tune of "is it worth spending sooo much money on this".

 

I am not super intelligent when it comes to building electronics from scratch, but I can kind of see that I could almost write myself a list of algorithms that I would like certain things around the house to do automatically. No, I don't even know where to start with Raspberry PI...

 

 

Thoughts please? 1st fix time as soon as mid Jan'23!

 

Thanks!

 

Bart

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 22, 2022 by BartW

[Dan F]

On 22/12/2022 at 16:48, BartW said:

- smoke alarms - this needs to be upgraded standalone system that is Grade C category LD1, so no way would it be integrated with anything smart.

Need to be seperate, but you can hook up to a loxone DI.  See: https://www.aico.co.uk/product/ei128r-hard-wired-relay-module/

 

On 22/12/2022 at 16:48, BartW said:

- CCTV - same as the above. I can't see it being part of the smart system. It will be just 4 external IP cams with POE and NVR recorder. Nothing fancy. Separate app controls, I would imagine.

Yes, although something I want to try to do is get motion alerts from "Unifi Protect" to turn lights at front of the house on/off.

 

On 22/12/2022 at 16:48, BartW said:

- TV - I initially thought HD Base T, but concluded that each of the TVs will just have Freeview, and a choice of a dongle(s) like Amazon Fire and Apple TV. We are not massive TV people, and this is all we need.

You should run 2xCAT6 minumum anyway, even if you don't use video distribution these serve to hardwire tv and apple etc etc.  Also run 2 x co-ax for freeview/stalalite.   This guide is slightly US-centric, but still very valuable: http://www.tymhomes.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/TYM-Prewire-Quick-Guide-3-D.pdf

 

On 22/12/2022 at 16:48, BartW said:

- Internet - one router connected to OFNL + some hard wired wifi extenders around the house, hidden in ceilings, or storages.

If you are doing a new install I wouldn't use wifi-extenders!  Instead use hard-wired (PoE) access points around the house, all wired back to a central router in plant room, or where your internet comes into the house.

 

On 22/12/2022 at 16:48, BartW said:

- smart blinds - it would have been Somfy Tahoma with its own app. All set once and optionally shouted at via Alexa configured through IFTTT. If I choose Likes of Loxone, then I would need 11 x blinds motors @ around £200 + VAT each. I imagine I would need Relay extension. Can I control blinds up and down by a simple DC reverse, or would this be two channels per blind motor, and thus A LOOT of relay units?

You will need two relays per blind motor if you use basic blind motors.  This approach is the simplest though and avoids you being tied into a given manufactuer and their wireless protocol.  Other motors have a permamant live and are then control via low-voltage

 

On 22/12/2022 at 16:48, BartW said:

- smart heating - it could be Wunda Trade smart actuators, hub, and room stats. Or I could buy Loxone ones @ £79 + VAT each. I would need 14 ports. That is a lot of actuators, and equally even more relays and extensions... Am I right in saying the temperature control could be had by 

I thought I'd be controling actuactors via Loxone when I first started, but quickly realised that this doesn't make sense.  Instead I know have two zones managed by the Vaillant controls and each UFH loop has a self-balancing always-on actuactor instead.

 

On 22/12/2022 at 16:48, BartW said:

- MVHR - can I somehow integrate that? I have a Zehnder Q350 with ComfoPost12 coming. Can I send triggers from movement sensors in bathrooms via a relay in Loxone to switch on boost? Does Humidity sensor in the super expensive Loxone switches allow me to pick up a reading through DI / tree, and assign signal to a relay output if RHI goes above a certain figure?

Yes, they have a KNX or LAN box you can get.  With the LAN box you can connect to Loxone using a Loxberry plugin.  I have programmed boost based on bathroom humidy just yet, to be honest I've been suprised at how well the Zehnder units do things themselves, especially the automatic night purge that they do in the summer then it's cool outside but still warm inside, that's invaluable and not something.

 

On 22/12/2022 at 16:48, BartW said:

- around the house speakers - There would be 11 speakers around the house, and these could be seperate Sonos amps (I would buy used ones), or Loxone Miniserver + some stereo extensions, and of course speakers. 

Lots of ways to do this.  We used a mix:

- For larger areas where we entertain or want higher quality we used local Bluesound Powernodes with better speakers.

- For bedrooms and other smaller rooms (where power output and quality less important) we use Loxone AudioServer

- For TV room we use local AV receiver.

 

On 22/12/2022 at 16:48, BartW said:

- Lighting - The plan is to use non-smart lamps and spotlights, as well as 12/24V drivers for LED tapes. Loxone Tree switches (especially the Pure) look really sexy. But am I right in thinking that @ £234 + VAT I am essentially buying a single (1 gang) switch? What if I need a 3 gang? And slave units by the bed for his/ hers / spotlights / LED? That sounds like a lot of switches per room, right? And if I consider Faradite Tap-5, then that's 5 digital inputs per switch. Time that @ number of rooms, and I am starting to create a control room rather than DIN cupboard for all of the "hub" gubbins. Am I missing something here?

Loxone Tree switches are expensive, but start to make more sense if you also use them to control blinds and audio.  Also, they are slightly more than a 1-gang switch in the sense that it's easy to do things with double/triple taps.  That said, there are cheaper alernatives for sure, including the more basic switches that Loxone sell.  The tree switches do mean less cables to terminate.

 

On 22/12/2022 at 16:48, BartW said:

Whilst I can swallow £3k for the blinds, £1500 for heating controls, and another £2k for audio, without even doing the proper maths I arrive at a whooping figure of about £10k for lighting alone, EXCLUDING light fittings. Am I being mad to even consider???

£3k for blinds or blind controls?  I'd think a bit more about the heating controls.  Audio you can pre-wire and then work out the rest later can't you?

 

On 22/12/2022 at 16:48, BartW said:

I am starting to arrive at a conclusion that perhaps individual "mini-smart" solutions are just as capable. Although, as clear from the above, I can't think of one solution that would be good for lighting and dimming. 

What do you mean my "mini-smart"?  Have a mix of different wired/wireless protocols from different manufactuers will make it a fair bit harder to have a centralized control and create automation that span multiple things.

 

On 22/12/2022 at 16:48, BartW said:

 

I am not super intelligent when it comes to building electronics from scratch, but I can kind of see that I could almost write myself a list of algorithms that I would like certain things around the house to do automatically. No, I don't even know where to start with Raspberry PI...

Are you planning to hire someone for Loxone install/configuration or do it yourself?

Edited December 28, 2022 by Dan F

[BartW]

11 minutes ago, Dan F said:

Need to be seperate, but you can hook up to a loxone DI.  See: https://www.aico.co.uk/product/ei128r-hard-wired-relay-module/

 

Ok, this looks simple enough, and sounds like I could integrate it easily, so good shout, thanks!

 

16 minutes ago, Dan F said:

Yes, although something I want to try to do is get motion alerts from "Unifi Protect" to turn lights at front of the house on/off.

I think most NVRs come with external trigger outputs that can be programmed in if a particular zone is entered. This could be email push, or low voltage analog signal that supposedly could be connected to analog IO on Loxone?

 

Noted on Cat6 and Coax, also the POE extenders.

 

18 minutes ago, Dan F said:

If you use basic relays you need to relays per blind motor if you use basic blind motors.  This approach is the simplest though and avoids you being tied into a given manufactuer and their wireless protocol.

Yes, I think that is the plan. I since realised Loxone sell a blinds motor relay, but again multiplied by number of blinds, a simple KNX relay could work very well here?

 

20 minutes ago, Dan F said:

Loxone Tree switches are expensive, but start to make more sense if you also use them to control blinds and audio.  Also, they are slightly more than a 1-gang switch in the sense that it's easy to do things with double/triple taps.  That said, there are cheaper alernatives for sure, including the more basic switches that Loxone sell.  The tree switches do mean less cables to terminate.

 

Whilst I can see the blinds being controlled from the wall, the music source would first need to be selected. Skipping tracks and controlling volume from the wall I would find grossly inconvenient. Thus lack of use for me. Another challenge is that top floor gym has a dual aspect and individual blinds in that room. This would either call for two switches (of which one only controlling the blinds), or them being grouped. Again, One of the blinds shades over fixed windows, the other one does it over the sliding door onto the roof terrace... Simple thought process here again was use of retractive switches with mid position, again easily adapted into KNX protocol (am I being boring?)

 

26 minutes ago, Dan F said:

£3k for blinds or blind controls?  I'd think a bit more about the heating controls.  Audio you can pre-wire and then work out the rest later can't you?

 

Blind controls sadly...

Heating, as discussed elsewhere but yes...

Audio is easy, and as you say, I can figure it out later. But almost definite to be independent solution.

 

27 minutes ago, Dan F said:

What do you mean my "mini-smart"?  Have a mix of different wired/wireless protocols from different manufactuers will make it a fair bit harder to have a centralized control and create automation that span multiple things.

 

I meant mix of independent things rather than a centralised base system. So:

- use Sonos app for sound

- Zehnder app for ventilation

- Vaillant app for heat / Wunda for UFH controls?

- Somfy for blinds

- and so on

 

They all allow certain level of automation, just not allowing to trigger each other, if that makes sense.

 

 

[Dan F]

3 minutes ago, BartW said:

I think most NVRs come with external trigger outputs that can be programmed in if a particular zone is entered. This could be email push, or low voltage analog signal that supposedly could be connected to analog IO on Loxone?

Yes. Unifi Protect doesn't have low-voltage option though, and no direct support for Unifi notifications in Loxone or any Loxberry extensions.  I think there is a home assistant plugin for this though, so that might be worth me exploring and then bridging to Loxone.

 

5 minutes ago, BartW said:

Yes, I think that is the plan. I since realised Loxone sell a blinds motor relay, but again multiplied by number of blinds, a simple KNX relay could work very well here?

The relays aren't hugely expense at £40 per blind. You've can probably get cheaper KNX relays yes but other costs/complexities with KNX.  Another option that integrates easily into Loxone would be cheap DMX relays, but this make more sense if you also use DMX for lighting.

 

10 minutes ago, BartW said:

Skipping tracks and controlling volume from the wall I would find grossly inconvenient.

It's very easy to control volume and skip tracks.  Make most sense if you have a favorites playlist or want to listen to radio without having to use your phone.

 

12 minutes ago, BartW said:

This would either call for two switches (of which one only controlling the blinds), or them being grouped

You can do creative stuff with the Loxone switch to achieve this like a double-tap to switch between blinds, or using the RHS if you aren't using audio.  But there are cases for simple switches, and this might be one of them.

 

14 minutes ago, BartW said:

Blind controls sadly...

Is this motors + relays?  What blinds are they, what motors are you looking at? Don't the blinds come with motors??

 

15 minutes ago, BartW said:

They all allow certain level of automation, just not allowing to trigger each other, if that makes sense.

Makes sense and you can do a lot like this, just harder to pull things together and you don't have a single go to app that controls everything.  For example, you are going away for the weekend and want to turn off lighting, lower blinds, turn-off music and put MVHR on minumum and put heating on 17C setback and set alarm, thats a lot of apps you need to go into to achieve that vs. something you could do via a simple quadruple-click on the switch as you leave the house.

 

[BartW]

23 minutes ago, Dan F said:

Yes. Unifi Protect doesn't have low-voltage option though, and no direct support for Unifi notifications in Loxone or any Loxberry extensions.  I think there is a home assistant plugin for this though, so that might be worth me exploring and then bridging to Loxone.

Is Unifi something you have already got, hence pursuing this solution, or are they simply a lot better than, say Hikvision, for example?

 

29 minutes ago, Dan F said:

The relays aren't hugely expense at £40 per blind. You've can probably get cheaper KNX relays yes but other costs/complexities with KNX.  Another option that integrates easily into Loxone would be cheap DMX relays, but this make more sense if you also use DMX for lighting.

Did you mean this? https://shop.loxone.com/enuk/nano-2-relay-tree.html 

 

30 minutes ago, Dan F said:

You can do creative stuff with the Loxone switch to achieve this like a double-tap to switch between blinds, or using the RHS if you aren't using audio.  But there are cases for simple switches, and this might be one of them.

 

Yes, this sounds more enticing. And equally, I am guessing I could surrender volume up / down, and use them for other light circuits? Equally, then, if I go for Tap5 from Faradite I could give any of the 5 switches different logics? (I appreciate these being cheaper would need twice as many wires and 5 times as many DIs on the hub itself).

 

32 minutes ago, Dan F said:

Is this motors + relays?  What blinds are they, what motors are you looking at? Don't the blinds come with motors??

 

Literally that. I basically stipulate £150 for motor only, and £100 per relay. Blinds are fairly inexpensive if manual. I am led to believe you just take out the tubular manual mechanism and swap it for the motor. I think I was looking at likes of this: https://shop.loxone.com/enen/solidline-air-10nm.html

 

 

36 minutes ago, Dan F said:

Makes sense and you can do a lot like this, just harder to pull things together and you don't have a single go to app that controls everything.  For example, you are going away for the weekend and want to turn off lighting, lower blinds, turn-off music and put MVHR on minumum and put heating on 17C setback and set alarm, thats a lot of apps you need to go into to achieve that vs. something you could do via a simple quadruple-click on the switch as you leave the house.

 

Yes, if the price difference is insignificant (whatever I mean by that, right?), then Loxone is the way forward. I am just concerned I will start off with certain level of expectations, and learn half way through the install that it will not materialise, unless I spend a lot more.

[Dan F]

2 hours ago, BartW said:

Is Unifi something you have already got, hence pursuing this solution, or are they simply a lot better than, say Hikvision, for example?

Yes

 

2 hours ago, BartW said:

Did you mean this? https://shop.loxone.com/enuk/nano-2-relay-tree.html 

No, price was based on centralized relays using relay extension.

 

2 hours ago, BartW said:

Literally that. I basically stipulate £150 for motor only, and £100 per relay. Blinds are fairly inexpensive if manual. I am led to believe you just take out the tubular manual mechanism and swap it for the motor. I think I was looking at likes of this: https://shop.loxone.com/enen/solidline-air-10nm.html

Hard to beleive that a basic blind motor is £150.  You don't need to use a Loxone motor and for a new build I wouldn't use Loxone Air either.  Ideally buy blinds that come with the motors and get basic wired motors without any wireless control.

 

2 hours ago, BartW said:

I am just concerned I will start off with certain level of expectations, and learn half way through the install that it will not materialise, unless I spend a lot more

For example?  KNX has the advantage of being vendor-nuetral and having a lot more hardware options, but this does bring some additional complexity.

[BartW]

41 minutes ago, Dan F said:

Yes

I take that’s a double yes?

 

42 minutes ago, Dan F said:

Hard to beleive that a basic blind motor is £150.  You don't need to use a Loxone motor and for a new build I wouldn't use Loxone Air either.  Ideally buy blinds that come with the motors and get basic wired motors without any wireless control.

somehow I have been struggling to find one elsewhere. In an ideal world I would get some somfy motors, but they closest one I find in the uk is this one, although RTS suggests it is wireless:

 

https://www.poweredblinds.co.uk/powered-tube/

 

or this, but it wants a 12v power adapter, which suggests the controls are still to be done via radio:

 

https://www.poweredblinds.co.uk/sonesse-28rts-replacement/
 

49 minutes ago, Dan F said:

For example?  KNX has the advantage of being vendor-nuetral and having a lot more hardware options, but this does bring some additional complexity.

it’s broad terms, but I used to have a yamaha multiroom AV receiver in the flat we used to own. Prewired for it, and started using only to learn it could only send select signals to zone 2. Then tried something else only to learn that BT source on zone 1 would not allow a pre-installed spotify app to play in zone 2. It is a little mishap on a basic level, and perhaps one that taught me to do more research on the next project. I just fear that maybe I am trying to hard? If money was no object, I would probably list all my wants and employ someone to take my money, then demand it work as promised. Because I am doing it all myself and on the budget, I just hope and keep my fingers crossed it will deliver. 
 

Spending extra £15k on electrics is something I had not planned for (and technically could do away with), just like a £12k front door that I maybe don’t need. But could I bother concluding 12 months down the line that a three storey house is more convenient when you don’t have to run to the top floor when you are out of the door, and late for the tunnel, but triple checking that all lights, heating, doors are shut…

 

modern day living. Yes, I know and am quite frankly embarrassed to talk about it, once I see a daily portion of the sky news. 

 

 

[Dan F]

2 hours ago, BartW said:

take that’s a double yes?

Already have Unifi protect yes.  As for if Unifi is better than Hikvision I'm not sure.  The software is more polished and is integrated with the wireless controller which I liked, but it's also a bit more of a closed system

 

2 hours ago, BartW said:

somehow I have been struggling to find one elsewhere. In an ideal world I would get some somfy motors, but they closest one I find in the uk is this one, although RTS suggests it is wireless:

I bought some Somfy curtain tracks/motors recently from https://thehomeofinteriors.co.uk/.  Most of what is on their website is "RTS", but they do sell the very basic "WT" version if you ask.  Looks like they do motorized blinds too.

 

2 hours ago, BartW said:

just like a £12k front door that I maybe don’t need

Wow. either thats a big door or prices have gone up a lot over the last 2yrs!! 

[BartW]

15 minutes ago, Dan F said:

I bought some Somfy curtain tracks/motors recently from https://thehomeofinteriors.co.uk/.  Most of what is on their website is "RTS", but they do sell the very basic "WT" version if you ask.  Looks like they do motorized blinds too.

Thanks, will contact them for a quote.

 

16 minutes ago, Dan F said:

Wow. either thats a big door or prices have gone up a lot over the last 2yrs!! 

It's my idea of a door... Long story short, I could have a solidoor for £3k. But this one is a loooovely pivot door from UrbanFront, made in black oak with irregular grooves to perfectly complement my charred timber cladding all around. Oh, it also comes with finger print thing which I might ditch, and a £2k handle (just for the bloody handle!). Funnily enough, survey or installation NOT included...

 

 

[Dan F]

4 hours ago, BartW said:

It's my idea of a door... Long story short, I could have a solidoor for £3k. But this one is a loooovely pivot door from UrbanFront, made in black oak with irregular grooves to perfectly complement my charred timber cladding all around. Oh, it also comes with finger print thing which I might ditch, and a £2k handle (just for the bloody handle!). Funnily enough, survey or installation NOT included...

Our Iroko UrbanFront door was 7.8k all in (ex VAT).  This long stainless steel handle was 600 for the pair, motorized lock 800 and matching side-light frame 1500.  This was 2yrs ago though, so either prices have gone up a lot, yours is very big or the black oak is v expensive.  Not installed yet, but planning to use the Loxone NFC keypad instead of fingerprint, thought it was more flexible for cleaners or giving someone a temporary code while away etc.

Edited December 28, 2022 by Dan F

[BartW]

5 minutes ago, Dan F said:

Our Iroko UrbanFront door was 7.8k all in (ex VAT).  This long stainless steel handle was 600 for the pair, motorized lock 800 and matching side-light frame 1500.  This was 2yrs ago though, so either prices have gone up a lot, yours is very big or the black oak is v expensive.  Not installed yet, but planning to use the Loxone NFC keypad instead of fingerprint, thought it was more flexible for cleaners or giving someone a temporary code while away etc.

They have gone up a lot. And the opening is rather big @ 1500 wide x 2440 high.    I just did not expect it. Perhaps why it hurts. And the handle. Looks like a tree branch, but still. I am buying a door. Not a car!

[Dan F]

2 minutes ago, BartW said:

They have gone up a lot. And the opening is rather big @ 1500 wide x 2440 high.    I just did not expect it. Perhaps why it hurts. And the handle. Looks like a tree branch, but still. I am buying a door. Not a car!

Just looked ours up, it was 950x2300 so a fair bit smaller.  Your not going to have any issues moving with a door that big, just hope you've left enough in the bank for some home automation 🙂

[BartW]

7 hours ago, Dan F said:

Just looked ours up, it was 950x2300 so a fair bit smaller.  Your not going to have any issues moving with a door that big, just hope you've left enough in the bank for some home automation 🙂

thanks, it’s that or a smaller one with a fixed window to the side. Surprisingly another £2k on top. 
 

i wish I could decide on both the electrics and the door right after I have nearly finished the build and ready to move in 😆

[Pocster]

On 22/12/2022 at 16:48, BartW said:

Hi,

Thanks for looking. This is just a preamble to a barrage of questions regarding smart home electrics.

 

Basically, I am trying to decide whether fully integrated smart home is for me.

 

Here is my quick rundown of what I need, and how I see integration:

 

- smoke alarms - this needs to be upgraded standalone system that is Grade C category LD1, so no way would it be integrated with anything smart.

 

Iv’e not implemented mine yet - but would keep this as a seperate thing I.e not dependent on HA or another system 

On 22/12/2022 at 16:48, BartW said:

 

- CCTV - same as the above. I can't see it being part of the smart system. It will be just 4 external IP cams with POE and NVR recorder. Nothing fancy. Separate app controls, I would imagine.

 

Depends exactly what you want . Some ip cameras a nvr ( or cloud based recorder ) will be fine for security . If you want cctv to ‘trigger’ other events then some kind of HA . I use a few cameras indoors as it gives almost perfect control over lighting compared to movement sensors .

 

On 22/12/2022 at 16:48, BartW said:

 

- TV - I initially thought HD Base T, but concluded that each of the TVs will just have Freeview, and a choice of a dongle(s) like Amazon Fire and Apple TV. We are not massive TV people, and this is all we need.

 

Just a wired cat 5/6 to where you want each tv . Can add dongles / Apple TV etc. as you wish then .

 

On 22/12/2022 at 16:48, BartW said:

 

- Sockets - nothing fancy obviously. and nothing else.

 

- Internet - one router connected to OFNL + some hard wired wifi extenders around the house, hidden in ceilings, or storages.

 

Depending on size of your build you may want a mesh . Also your view on how fast you wish WiFi to be .

 

On 22/12/2022 at 16:48, BartW said:

 

- AV Hub - there is only need for one. And that is in the Living Room. It will have a soundbar and a hardwired subwoofer. Or maybe some speakers in the furniture.

 

Now, here is where my dilemmas start:

 

- smart blinds - it would have been Somfy Tahoma with its own app. All set once and optionally shouted at via Alexa configured through IFTTT. If I choose Likes of Loxone, then I would need 11 x blinds motors @ around £200 + VAT each. I imagine I would need Relay extension. Can I control blinds up and down by a simple DC reverse, or would this be two channels per blind motor, and thus A LOOT of relay units?

 

- smart heating - it could be Wunda Trade smart actuators, hub, and room stats. Or I could buy Loxone ones @ £79 + VAT each. I would need 14 ports. That is a lot of actuators, and equally even more relays and extensions... Am I right in saying the temperature control could be had by 

 

- MVHR - can I somehow integrate that? I have a Zehnder Q350 with ComfoPost12 coming. Can I send triggers from movement sensors in bathrooms via a relay in Loxone to switch on boost? Does Humidity sensor in the super expensive Loxone switches allow me to pick up a reading through DI / tree, and assign signal to a relay output if RHI goes above a certain figure?

 

I was originally going to have sensors etc. trigger mvhr . In the end the mvhr functions perfectly without any external input . Set and forget 😁

On 22/12/2022 at 16:48, BartW said:

 

- around the house speakers - There would be 11 speakers around the house, and these could be seperate Sonos amps (I would buy used ones), or Loxone Miniserver + some stereo extensions, and of course speakers. 
 

 

Depends on budget . I put Polk ceiling speakers in bedrooms and bathrooms . Each fed by a raspberry pi .

Totally reliable and considerably cheaper than Sonos 

 

 

On 22/12/2022 at 16:48, BartW said:

 

 

- Lighting - The plan is to use non-smart lamps and spotlights, as well as 12/24V drivers for LED tapes. Loxone Tree switches (especially the Pure) look really sexy. But am I right in thinking that @ £234 + VAT I am essentially buying a single (1 gang) switch? What if I need a 3 gang? And slave units by the bed for his/ hers / spotlights / LED? That sounds like a lot of switches per room, right? And if I consider Faradite Tap-5, then that's 5 digital inputs per switch. Time that @ number of rooms, and I am starting to create a control room rather than DIN cupboard for all of the "hub" gubbins. Am I missing something here?

 

Whilst I can swallow £3k for the blinds, £1500 for heating controls, and another £2k for audio, without even doing the proper maths I arrive at a whooping figure of about £10k for lighting alone, EXCLUDING light fittings. Am I being mad to even consider???

 

Help please? 

 

I am starting to arrive at a conclusion that perhaps individual "mini-smart" solutions are just as capable. Although, as clear from the above, I can't think of one solution that would be good for lighting and dimming. 

 

I guess I should have formed my subject question more to the tune of "is it worth spending sooo much money on this".

 

I am not super intelligent when it comes to building electronics from scratch, but I can kind of see that I could almost write myself a list of algorithms that I would like certain things around the house to do automatically. No, I don't even know where to start with Raspberry PI...

 

 

Thoughts please? 1st fix time as soon as mid Jan'23!

 

Thanks!

 

Bart

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The problem is as you’ve pointed out is your time / knowledge against budget .

 

If you can’t be arsed ( or simply don’t want to ) learn raspberry pi stuff for audio as an example then spend on Sonos or similar .

3k on blinds I’d shit a brick at ! 😎 ; I’ll find / make my own solution .

 

Perhaps it’s best to set a budget for everything you want then allocate funds based on how important it is to you and how much work you want .

 

Or just get tons of cash and buy everything you want 😎

[tuftythesquirrel]

On 22/12/2022 at 16:48, BartW said:

Hi,

Thanks for looking. This is just a preamble to a barrage of questions regarding smart home electrics.

 

Basically, I am trying to decide whether fully integrated smart home is for me.

 

Here is my quick rundown of what I need, and how I see integration:

 

- smoke alarms - this needs to be upgraded standalone system that is Grade C category LD1, so no way would it be integrated with anything smart.

 

- CCTV - same as the above. I can't see it being part of the smart system. It will be just 4 external IP cams with POE and NVR recorder. Nothing fancy. Separate app controls, I would imagine.

 

- TV - I initially thought HD Base T, but concluded that each of the TVs will just have Freeview, and a choice of a dongle(s) like Amazon Fire and Apple TV. We are not massive TV people, and this is all we need.

 

- Sockets - nothing fancy obviously. and nothing else.

 

- Internet - one router connected to OFNL + some hard wired wifi extenders around the house, hidden in ceilings, or storages.

 

- AV Hub - there is only need for one. And that is in the Living Room. It will have a soundbar and a hardwired subwoofer. Or maybe some speakers in the furniture.

 

Now, here is where my dilemmas start:

 

- smart blinds - it would have been Somfy Tahoma with its own app. All set once and optionally shouted at via Alexa configured through IFTTT. If I choose Likes of Loxone, then I would need 11 x blinds motors @ around £200 + VAT each. I imagine I would need Relay extension. Can I control blinds up and down by a simple DC reverse, or would this be two channels per blind motor, and thus A LOOT of relay units?

 

- smart heating - it could be Wunda Trade smart actuators, hub, and room stats. Or I could buy Loxone ones @ £79 + VAT each. I would need 14 ports. That is a lot of actuators, and equally even more relays and extensions... Am I right in saying the temperature control could be had by 

 

- MVHR - can I somehow integrate that? I have a Zehnder Q350 with ComfoPost12 coming. Can I send triggers from movement sensors in bathrooms via a relay in Loxone to switch on boost? Does Humidity sensor in the super expensive Loxone switches allow me to pick up a reading through DI / tree, and assign signal to a relay output if RHI goes above a certain figure?

 

- around the house speakers - There would be 11 speakers around the house, and these could be seperate Sonos amps (I would buy used ones), or Loxone Miniserver + some stereo extensions, and of course speakers. 

 

 

- Lighting - The plan is to use non-smart lamps and spotlights, as well as 12/24V drivers for LED tapes. Loxone Tree switches (especially the Pure) look really sexy. But am I right in thinking that @ £234 + VAT I am essentially buying a single (1 gang) switch? What if I need a 3 gang? And slave units by the bed for his/ hers / spotlights / LED? That sounds like a lot of switches per room, right? And if I consider Faradite Tap-5, then that's 5 digital inputs per switch. Time that @ number of rooms, and I am starting to create a control room rather than DIN cupboard for all of the "hub" gubbins. Am I missing something here?

 

Whilst I can swallow £3k for the blinds, £1500 for heating controls, and another £2k for audio, without even doing the proper maths I arrive at a whooping figure of about £10k for lighting alone, EXCLUDING light fittings. Am I being mad to even consider???

 

Help please? 

 

I am starting to arrive at a conclusion that perhaps individual "mini-smart" solutions are just as capable. Although, as clear from the above, I can't think of one solution that would be good for lighting and dimming. 

 

I guess I should have formed my subject question more to the tune of "is it worth spending sooo much money on this".

 

I am not super intelligent when it comes to building electronics from scratch, but I can kind of see that I could almost write myself a list of algorithms that I would like certain things around the house to do automatically. No, I don't even know where to start with Raspberry PI...

 

 

Thoughts please? 1st fix time as soon as mid Jan'23!

 

Thanks!

 

Bart

 

I went through a similar process some time ago, pricing up different options. I found the price of the KNX and Loxone hardware staggering. I had a quote from Loxone who appeared to want to know the floor area to help them calculate the price, even though I gave them an I/O list. Unfortunately the quote was presented as a single liner, so I had no idea where the money was being spent e.g. software, hardware, configuration. In the same way as I would decline professional services if the fees were based on the cost of my build, I wasn’t quite sure how the floor area correlated to the electrical hardware.

 

I stumbled on a company called Idratek and priced their hardware up alongside the Loxone and KNX. See below for the results.

 

MyKNXStore….
Binary Input 8-fold, 4SU MDRC, Contact Inputs £260 (£33/chan.)
Binary output 8-fold £339 (£42/chan.)
Analogue input 8-fold £174 (£42/chan.)
Analog Actuator 4-fold, 2SU, MDRC, 0-10V, In-/Output shiftable £181 (£45/chan.)
Dimmer DME 2 T KNX, 2-fold £212 (£106/chan.)

 

Loxone….
DI Extension - 20 digital in £317 (£16/chan.)
DO Extension - 14 relay out £375 (£27/chan.)
AI Extension - 4 analogue out £206 (£62/chan.)
AO Extension - 4 analogue out £252 (£76/chan.)
Dimmer Extension - 4 dimmer out £514 (£128/chan.)

 

Idratek
ODI-002 Digital in 8 general purpose £46 (£6/chan.)
QRI-002 Digital out 4 x 4A fused SPNO relays £83 (£21.chan.)
QTI-001 Digital out 4 x 1A ZC Triac noiseless switching channels £83 (£21/chan.)
QAI-002 Analogue in 4 analogue input channels £46 (£12/chan.)
QAI-002 Analogue out 4 analogue input channels £46  (£12/chan.)
QLD-003 4 channel trailing edge dimmer £118 (£30/chan.)

 

The price of the interface modules for my system, ignoring any CPU, server hardware and not using any flashy touchscreen interfaces and so on.

KNX       £23,084
Loxone £17,234
Idratek £6,858

 

I haven’t used the Loxone or KNX development environments but what I know about the Idratek system is….

I’ve had the software running for around 6 months (free trial version) with very few issues. You can program it not to use the server and use a lower level protocol where the modules communicate directly, bypassing the server. It seems easy to configure and you can always ask them questions. See below for pros and cons. 

 

Not sure how the support would work with KNX, with third party hardware modules and someone else’s software. Loxone also said they were going down the approved installer path but the shop is still online.

 

Pros
Cost of software and hardware, no expensive interfaces required
Triac outputs (silent and longer lasting than relays)
All in one network module for Temperature/Humidity/Light/Motion
Backup server easy to implement
Superb support

Cons
No indication on digital input signals
Analogue input resolution only 8 bits
No Loxone/KNX/Modbus/MQTT interfaces

 

 

[Dan F]

1 hour ago, tuftythesquirrel said:

The price of the interface modules for my system, ignoring any CPU, server hardware and not using any flashy touchscreen interfaces and so on.

KNX       £23,084
Loxone £17,234
Idratek £6,858

Interesting KNX significnatly more expensive.  Did that include a KNX "server" that gives nice usable central control/interface?

[tuftythesquirrel]

1 hour ago, Dan F said:

Interesting KNX significnatly more expensive.  Did that include a KNX "server" that gives nice usable central control/interface?

Nope.

 

I just priced up the basic Input and Output modules for the (my) project. No development software, servers, touch switches, touchscreens etc.

 

Totals below:

 

DI x 312
DO  x 150
Dimmer x 50
AI x 24
AO x 4

 

Sorry forgot to mention the Idratek system has a built in webserver for the interface, so you could just use a few cheap Android phones with an internet browser for touchscreen (or a wall mounted tablet).

 

Pros
Cost of software and hardware, no expensive interfaces required
Triac outputs (silent and longer lasting than relays)
All in one network module for Temperature/Humidity/Light/Motion
Built in webserver for user interface via browser

Backup server easy to implement
Superb support

Cons
No indication on digital input signals
Analogue input resolution only 8 bits

User terminal/interface (DFP-H02) looks dated
No Loxone/KNX/Modbus/MQTT interfaces

 

[willbish]

On 28/12/2022 at 12:38, Dan F said:

you could do via a simple quadruple-click on the switch

 

Is this a thing?

From my limited wanderings in Config Ive only seen 3C. Can already think of a couple of uses for 4C in my set up

[Dan F]

5 hours ago, willbish said:

 

Is this a thing?

From my limited wanderings in Config Ive only seen 3C. Can already think of a couple of uses for 4C in my set up

Multi-click function block

[willbish]

10 hours ago, Dan F said:

Multi-click function block

Great, will take a look