Solar export problem?

[Seren161]

This sounds dreadful.. I think you can also contact the MCS as well

I had cause to contact them once and here is an excerpt from their email 

I will send below the complaints process for you to follow, if you have already written to the installer with details of the complaint and what needs to be actioned please email back, and I will follow up with the complaints link. 

The first step in the complaints process is for you, the consumer, to contact your installer in writing with details of your complaint and an outline of what remedial action is being sought. Letter templates, if required, can be found here:

• https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/template-letters/letters/
• https://www.legalombudsman.org.uk/information-centre/consumer-resources/complaining-to-a-service-provider/
• https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/letters

If you have not been able to reach a resolution with your installer within 14 days, then a complaint form, along with evidence and the installer's response, is referred to the installer's Certification Body and/or Consumer Code. MCS will facilitate this.

Certification Bodies, independently accredited by UKAS and working on behalf of MCS, are organisations responsible for certifying installers against the MCS Standards, publicly available on our website. Installers must also be a member of a CTSI-approved Consumer Code. Certification Bodies and Consumer Codes perform different functions on behalf of the Scheme. The nature of your complaint may dictate which of the two organisations will be involved in handling your complaint. Sometimes both will be involved.

MCS can identify your installer’s Certification Body or Consumer Code if you need assistance.

As a final option, you can escalate your complaint to MCS if you are still not satisfied following the Certification Body/ Consumer Code’s investigation. MCS can only investigate a complaint once the complaints process operated by your installer’s Certification Body and/or Consumer Code has been exhausted. Different Certification Bodies and Consumer Codes operate slightly different complaints processes, so we ask that you familiarise yourself with the complaints process your contractor’s Certification Body/ Consumer Code operates. You should also have the opportunity to challenge the Certification’s Body’s decision if you are in disagreement. 

Please note that in undertaking an escalated complaint, we will be holding the contractor directly to account, which will require allowing the contractor to access your property if necessary. Our ultimate sanction is removing a contractor from the Scheme. 

More information regarding the complaints process, as well as the role of Certification Bodies and Consumer Codes, can be found here: https://mcscertified.com/complaints-compliance/    

Kind Regards,

 

Hope it helps

 

[Dillsue]

4 hours ago, patp said:

My thinking is that I should go to the NICEIC and ask them to do an inspection and then take over the arbitration in the matter.

 

I sympathise with the hassle youre having but don't waste your time with NICEIC as they're not the horse for this course. A complaint to MCS is the route you need to be taking as all the issues youve got will be dealt with by them. As youve now got 2 'professionals' arguing over whats right and whats wrong, you dont want to be piggy in the middle so a prompt complaint to MCS should get some expert help on your side

Edited March 4, 2023 by Dillsue

[patp]

Thanks guys. I do admit to feeling, as piggy in the middle, a bit overwhelmed by it all.

 

The second guy is very annoyed that another installer has disregarded all the MCS rules and regulations.

I am feeling nervous now about telling the installer of the latest findings as, while he stays professional, he is a very forceful character.

Should I give him the chance to answer the latest findings i.e. the fact that there is no RCD on the solar set up and that a special shade measuring camera has indicated that about a third of the panels cannot function properly? He glossed over both of those issues during his damage limitation visit the other day.

[SteamyTea]

5 minutes ago, patp said:

forceful character.

AKA a wanker.

[patp]

Does anyone have an opinion on the Huawei inverter in comparison to the Solus. One guy is telling us one thing while the other prefers the other. The Solis has been fitted from the start but the original guy seems to have a bee in his bonnet about changing it. First he wanted to fit a larger unit and now he wants to change to Huawei. Our advisor says that the Solis is the best.

[Dillsue]

Ignore the pair of them and get MCS involved. I'd be fairly confident they will advise on any and all remedial work that needs to be done and likely ensure that Mr forceful gets things done to MCS instructions or pays for someone else to sort it out for you.

 

The only place Mr Forceful should be living up to his name is with his staff IF they are taking the p. As a lay customer, you shouldn't even be aware thats his character.

[patp]

Yeah, it is driving me nuts to be honest

[patp]

Latest problem is that the installer is insisting that we need to change the Solis inverter for a Huawei one. Second chap says that Solis is fine so why change it and he is looking for faults! The original company seem absolutely obsessed with changing the Solis inverter after telling us, twice, that it was fine!

 

I have contacte MCS and, after filling out their complaint form, they have emailed me to ask me to fill in their complaint form! Am I going mad here?! I phoned them and they seemed a bit reluctant to get involved until I explained what had happened up to now. I am doing my best with my limited technological skills to  put the complaint together in the format they require. I thought that passing it over to them might take away the stress not add to it

[patp]

The installer has emailed and wants to come and connect all the loose strings up. He says it will only take a couple of hours. I am concerned that he is going to be up in the roof space covering his tracks. Am I being paranoid?!

[SteamyTea]

25 minutes ago, patp said:

The installer has emailed and wants to come and connect all the loose strings up. He says it will only take a couple of hours. I am concerned that he is going to be up in the roof space covering his tracks. Am I being paranoid?!

No need to be paranoid. I think it is part of the complaints process that you have to give the installer a chance to rectify the problems.

 

 

Take some pictures.

Can you do a basic circuit diagram?

 

I used to do basic diagrams about what was needed, and where.

The lads then (expletive deleted)ed it up.

[patp]

Who checks that he has rectified it? We can't keep paying the other guy to come and check it. As far as I can tell MCS only tell the original contractor to put it right. He is willing to put it right. I cannot find out if they send someone to oversee the work.

[SteamyTea]

@patp

 

Quickly sketch out what you have, and what you think it should be doing.

Then post up.

Hopefully we, as a collective, should be able to identify areas you need to ask about.

[Dillsue]

Ask MCS if they want to inspect the suspected defects and/or supervise remedial works. If they do, then don't let anyone touch anything until MCS have taken the lead on what they want to do. If MCS arent interested then youve little option but to let the original supplier carry out remedial works of their choosing, and potentially loose any "evidence" of poor work.

Alternatively you can pay someone else more trusted to determine any remedial works and then do the work. You're unlikely to be able to recover any extra cash you spend if youve denied the original installer the opportunity to fix things!!

Do you know what the MCS complaints process says they will do??

[patp]

On first enquiry they just try to push the original installer to come back and sort it out. When I outline how many faults there are, and how clever the installer appears to be, they say "would you like us to refer it then?". It seems that they expect the installer to rush around sorting it out if they hear they are being reported to MCS. I understand that if it is just a case of one fault that is acceptable. We have a series of faults, and a disagreement between professionals as to how they should be addressed. That is my biggest problem - that I am not able to decide which one of the two is best qualified to advise.

 

An instance of the above is that the original installer wants to change the Solis inverter, that he fitted, for a Huawei one. He cites the Huawei one has better technology for him to do remote monitoring. At the beginning of all this I was told, twice, that the inverter was fine. Then they decided it was faulty! Hmmm. The second guy says there is no need to replace the Solis as it is a better inverter than the Huawei. As that (the free replacement inverter) is part of the "compensation" deal that was offered I would then have to re negotiate what they offer.

So draining.........

[SteamyTea]

12 minutes ago, patp said:

change the Solis inverter

You have mentioned the inverter a number of times.

Apart from a few different features, there really is not a gnats cock between them.  Unregulated DC goes in, regulated AC comes out.  They disconnect when they need to.

The more important thing is how the modules are wired into it i.e. are the separate 'strings' within the inverters limits, is the inverter wired into the most used phase in the house, or in the case of 3 phase, is the largest/most productive string/s wired into the most appropriate phase (3 separate inverters is so much easier with 3 phase).

17 minutes ago, patp said:

We have a series of faults, and a disagreement between professionals as to how they should be addressed. That is my biggest problem - that I am not able to decide which one of the two is best qualified to advise.

Why I suggested that you do a simple sketch and state what you want the system to do i.e. help run the washing machine, charge the car, heat the DHW...

[Dillsue]

1 hour ago, patp said:

 That is my biggest problem - that I am not able to decide which one of the two is best qualified to advise.

Youve got a number of contentious issues where both installers have differing views. Youve also got a few defects identified by the new installer that the original installer has accepted.

There's no absolute guarantee that the new installer is competant/trustworthy but out of the pair of them he'd definitely be the one Id be inclined to trust over the other 

[patp]

2 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

You have mentioned the inverter a number of times.

Apart from a few different features, there really is not a gnats cock between them.  Unregulated DC goes in, regulated AC comes out.  They disconnect when they need to.

The more important thing is how the modules are wired into it i.e. are the separate 'strings' within the inverters limits, is the inverter wired into the most used phase in the house, or in the case of 3 phase, is the largest/most productive string/s wired into the most appropriate phase (3 separate inverters is so much easier with 3 phase).

Why I suggested that you do a simple sketch and state what you want the system to do i.e. help run the washing machine, charge the car, heat the DHW...

That's very interesting about the 3 phase @SteamyTea. We have 46 panels, most of them on a South facing roof with some on a West facing roof. We also have 3 phase. We hoped that with so many panels in sunny Norfolk we would cover most of our power needs but now wonder if one inverter is going to cope? The installer is very experienced but just got very busy during the period of our installation and sent the ordinary electrician to install our system. He would regularly say that "I don't know - I don't do solar"  or "I don't know about 3 phase". We assumed that a solar expert would arrive to check the system but that never happened. 

 

@Dillsue that is my instinct. MCS, however seem to want the original guy to sort out his mess. To be fair he is willing to do that but we are not always happy with his idea of a fix. I suppose we could let him fix his mess and then get it checked out by the second guy and go from there?

[SteamyTea]

35 minutes ago, patp said:

wonder if one inverter is going to cope

One physical inverter can still be 3 Phase.

I am sure it has been mentioned about putting the most effective (probably south the facing ones) onto the house phases that gets used the most during the day i.e. washing machine, hob, cooker, DHW, HP or car charger.

It would probably take a half decent electrician 20 minutes to work out which phase has what on it, the rest of us maybe half an hour.  Usually just a case of looking closely at the consumer unit.

 

[Dillsue]

14 hours ago, patp said:

The installer is very experienced but just got very busy during the period of our installation and sent the ordinary electrician to install our system.

From what youve told us youve got 2 experienced and presumed competant people that cant even agree if theres an RCD fitted to the solar circuit. An RCD is a readily identifiable common safety component so one of these two isnt competant. They can be built into an inverter but as solar installers they should both know that.

[patp]

I asked the original installer where the RCD unit was for the solar system. This is his reply -

 

There is no RCD installed on the Solar System. We do not install RCDs on Solar circuits as it can cause nuisance tripping – We install the cabling in a method compliant with BS7871 so no Additional Protection (RCD) is required on the circuit.

 

I’m not sure what this special camera is ?  Can you please provide me with more details and the report issued by your advisor.

 

Our sell price for a Huawei Hybrid Inverter is £1850, our sell price for a Solis Inverter is £1000. The Huawei online monitoring is far superior than that of Solis & the Huawei also allows for direct connection of batteries where as the Solis does not.

 

Sorry to hear this is causing you stress, I do feel the resolution I offered you was very fair and proportionate.

 

If you are going to refer this to MCS then I will let the process take its course, however you still have an unconnected string which needs to be resolved – Can we still attend to rectify this ?  Will take no more than 2 hours.

[Dillsue]

1 hour ago, patp said:

I asked the original installer where the RCD unit was for the solar system. This is his reply -

 

There is no RCD installed on the Solar System. We do not install RCDs on Solar circuits as it can cause nuisance tripping – We install the cabling in a method compliant with BS7871 so no Additional Protection (RCD) is required on the circuit.

In a previous post you quoted an email from the old installer where he inferred there was an RCD. Now he says they dont fit them. Bit confusing if not a complete u turn?? The wiring regs are BS7671.

He's admitting theres a string not connected so you probably want to ask the new installer to find out how many panels are on the unconnected string and ask the old installer to pay you for a proportion of the lost generation! If the cables are just hanging without plugs then thats potentially a very hazardous issue as a potential for a shock or starting a fire. If he's keen to remedy that he's probably realised hes likely gonna get a reaming from MCS. If you can get some photos of the unconnected cables its probably worth passing those to MCS

[patp]

It was the boss of the original firm, himself, who found a whole row of strings hanging behind roofing felt. No wonder he wants to come and connect them all up. Two of his employees, one of them a sarky "I have been in solar for 28 years" guy had been up in the roof space to "check if everything is working properly" prior to the boss discovering the unconnected strings. The employee who installed the system, along with wiring the rest of the house, declared that solar, and three phase, were "not his thing". No one came out to check his installation. Alongside all these tangible errors they did not give a solar quote which would have given us an idea of how the shading on the roof would affect the system. They did not issue an MCS, and another certificate, until I was trying to sign up with the Octopus tarif and they asked for it. It is an unbelievable mess.

 

i am starting to think that I should engage legal help with this.

[joth]

1 hour ago, patp said:

 

i am starting to think that I should engage legal help with this.

Some thoughts on this, to try and help the process.

 

I appreciate exactly why you're thinking this, but I fear that will just make the whole escapade drag on much longer. While you don't want to be ripped off (and want to be put right for the flagrant errors already made) I sense you also want this to be all be over and not have to spend more time and emotional energy on it any more. 

 

A sticking point seems to be the replacement of the inverter. Ultimately, if wanting to resolve via MCS, you have to give the original installer opportunity to put right their mistakes, so if they insist the replacement is needed the decision is kind of made for you. To ease the mind, you could post the _exact_ model numbers of old and new ones here so we can check the claims made. You can ask for confirmation the warranty for the inverter and the whole system will be extended (to start from the effective completion date). And ask them about additional guarantee / assurance they can provide. E.g. how they will test the system really is working correctly over a longer period, and provide clear evidence that it is working to you this summer. 

[Dillsue]

+1 to what Joth is saying

 

As the installer is offering to remedy all the defects, if you go down the legal route the only winner will be your solicitors. 

 

Hopefully if MCS get involved they can ensure that any remedial works are done to the best standards

[patp]

Does anyone know if MCS actually come out and inspect the work. We already suspect that the original contractor is trying to palm us off with an inferior inverter to the one already fitted. They have already tried to send out the original fitter to connect up the strings that he missed the first time! He told us he "does not do solar" and that he "does not do" three phase.

 

This is the comment from our advisor about the inverter problem. Remember that the original installer came twice and declared that there was "nothing wrong with the inverter". We were, apparently, just using too much power.

 

 Advisor - "The Huawei Hybrid inverter is £381.99 cheaper than the solis equivalent, with that costing way over £1,762.91 (Huawei £1,380.92). The Solis App isn’t great, however when it’s all running you will rarely need to look at it." 

 

Original installer - 

"There is no RCD installed on the Solar System. We do not install RCDs on Solar circuits as it can cause nuisance tripping – We install the cabling in a method compliant with BS7871 so no Additional Protection (RCD) is required on the circuit.

 

I’m not sure what this special camera is ?  Can you please provide me with more details and the report issued by your advisor.

 

Our sell price for a Huawei Hybrid Inverter is £1850, our sell price for a Solis Inverter is £1000. The Huawei online monitoring is far superior than that of Solis & the Huawei also allows for direct connection of batteries where as the Solis does not."