Lulu555 Posted September 21, 2022 Share Posted September 21, 2022 So this is a long one… we brought a bungalow in green belt and want to add another storey. Sort pre planning advice for a planning application and other than the green belt rule, didn’t seem like any issue. We would have been refused based on the fact the extra storey increased our property mass by 80 odd percent and under green belt the max we could go is 25% which would give us nothing. So we decided to go down the pre approved permitted dev route as green belt rule doesn’t stand. We received a decision notice to say our application was approved and planning website updated. 2 days later my architect received a vm from planning officer saying that they were revoking the decision as they realised we don’t have permitted development rights on our property (a clause added In 1978 when bungalow was built). Has anyone come across this type of error before and has an idea of where we stand!? What are the implications for the council as surely they can’t just revoke a final decision? Thanks in advance for any advice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelvin Posted September 21, 2022 Share Posted September 21, 2022 I’m afraid the council can do what they like especially if policy is on their side. You could appeal it but that seems unlikely to succeed. What about knocking the bungalow down and building a new house? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lulu555 Posted September 21, 2022 Author Share Posted September 21, 2022 So the fact they have sent us the approved documents means nothing!? I just don’t understand how they have 3 odd months to look at the application, surely the first thing they would check is if we had permitted development rights, then to approve us and then to say oh we made a mistake, all this at our expense!!! Even if we knocked the bungalow down because of the pre planning advice we received the first time I’m unsure how we could get a house out of it based on this property mass calculation!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelvin Posted September 21, 2022 Share Posted September 21, 2022 (edited) There is case law in this area and you could challenge it. My reading of the case law is that the administrative error is neither here nor there it’s what the planning policy states. Therefore if your application meets all of the planning policies they can’t just revoke it willy nilly. However, in your case there is condition attached to the bungalow removing permitted development rights. I think what you need to do is investigate whether or not the condition could be removed. There is little point in developments having conditions applied to them if they get ignored after all. Has anyone else in the immediate neighbourhood built big extensions on similar sized properties? In terms of compensation couldn’t it be argued that you should have been aware of this condition before you made the application? In reference to knocking down and rebuilding. You would build a better house laid out more efficiently making better use of the space potentially. It being a bungalow you could get planning for a 1.5 storey house maybe. Edited September 21, 2022 by Kelvin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lulu555 Posted September 21, 2022 Author Share Posted September 21, 2022 We did actually ask the planning officer before submitting the application if we had permitted development rights and she confirmed we did, unfortunately this was verbally and not in writing! Otherwise we wouldn’t have bothered going down this route. There are 13 houses In the road and 7 have gone up! Our direct neighbours being 2 of the 7! it’s just annoying that the clause was added 40 plus years ago, and since then all these other houses have been redeveloped. Obviously the rules have changed over time, so that doesn’t help us! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelvin Posted September 21, 2022 Share Posted September 21, 2022 It’s not uncommon for there to be permitted development conditions. We have a permitted development condition on our plot albeit it’s in our favour as it removes the % restriction as we have a big plot. Don’t up though. You know you can get planning so work out what’s the best you can achieve within the guidelines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lulu555 Posted September 21, 2022 Author Share Posted September 21, 2022 Thank you for your advice! Fingers crossed we get something! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temp Posted September 21, 2022 Share Posted September 21, 2022 2 hours ago, Lulu555 said: We received a decision notice to say our application was approved and planning website updated. 2 days later my architect received a vm from planning officer saying that they were revoking the decision as they realised we don’t have permitted development rights on our property (a clause added In 1978 when bungalow was built). I think I would ask a planning consultant about this. https://www.no5.com/media/publications/what-do-you-do-when-youve-been-granted-planning-permission-by-administrative-error/ Quote If you have the benefit of a planning permission and the Council wishes to revoke its decision, it cannot simply remake a decision. It is established case law that local planning authorities cannot withdraw and re- issue decision notices to correct errors following an administrative mistake. Section 97 of the Town and Country Planning Act 1990 (“the TCPA”) allows councils to revoke or modify a planning consent “to such extent as they consider expedient” with regard to the development plan and any other material considerations. The Act does not define the test of expediency. The power to revoke or modify a planning permission conferred by s.97 is subject to liability to pay compensation. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lulu555 Posted September 21, 2022 Author Share Posted September 21, 2022 Thank you! I will look into this! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DevilDamo Posted September 21, 2022 Share Posted September 21, 2022 So did you submit a Prior Approval application for additional storeys, which was approved but the LPA then found an old condition which restricts PD and are saying they will revoke the PA? Or did you submit a Lawful Development Certificate for straight forward PD extensions, which that was approved and the LPA are saying it will be revoked? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lulu555 Posted September 21, 2022 Author Share Posted September 21, 2022 Prior approval application for an additional storey, yes got the approval then 2 days later received a vm saying they were going to revoke the decision because someone realised there was this clause removing of rights on the planning from 1978 when the bungalow was built! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DevilDamo Posted September 21, 2022 Share Posted September 21, 2022 Right ok. Only reason I ask is one of my clients’ neighbours has gone through something similar. There was a condition from around 1980 that withdrew PD rights. Planning have since granted their Prior Approval application for an additional storey, which threw me. I have asked the Planning Officer if PD rights are not checked as part of the PA process and they haven’t got back to me yet. I’m pretty sure the Council have made a mistake. Although not an ideal situation for you and once you have the formal determination but more importantly, the Planning Officers’ report/assessment, could you link me to a copy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lulu555 Posted September 22, 2022 Author Share Posted September 22, 2022 Did your clients neighbour ask/apply for the clause to be removed do you know? Maybe that’s why it’s been granted? you want the report of when they revoke the decision? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DevilDamo Posted September 22, 2022 Share Posted September 22, 2022 Nope. They submitted a straight forward PA application, which was granted… even though it appears their PD rights were removed back in around 1980. Yes, a bit of a strange request. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lulu555 Posted September 22, 2022 Author Share Posted September 22, 2022 Oh ok, that seems odd! Maybe their council are incompetent like mine and just nobody ever picked it up or they pretended not to realise to save showing their incompetence! No problem, not sure when we will receive it as we have had no response from them since this voice mail! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DevilDamo Posted September 22, 2022 Share Posted September 22, 2022 Ok, so I’ve now heard back from the Planning Officer about a neighbours’ application. They’ve instructed their Legal Team to revoke the Prior Approval. Ooops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelvin Posted September 22, 2022 Share Posted September 22, 2022 Oops indeed. Like I said there’s not much point in having these conditions in place if they are ignored. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted September 22, 2022 Share Posted September 22, 2022 18 hours ago, Lulu555 said: There are 13 houses In the road and 7 have gone up! Our direct neighbours being 2 of the 7! What do you mean by “gone up”, do you believe they have built Beyond that allowed, if so “precedence” may apply in your favour 🤔 in a previous house we applied to extend and a covenant on the houses around us stipulated no development/extensions but because others had done so the covenant was deemed void because of precedence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lulu555 Posted September 22, 2022 Author Share Posted September 22, 2022 @DevilDamooh dear, that’s going to be annoying for them! Hopefully they will also be able fight it! I take it your client is against what they are trying to do? Or would have liked to do the same!? @Kelvin some of these rules/conditions/stipulations are Just outdated, put in place 40 plus years ago, and times have changed! I appreciate why they have them and need them in certain instances but when others have done what you are trying to do along the same road these need to be looked at! @joe90yes gone up as in have added another storey or raised ridge and have loft conversions. We weren’t trying to go bigger or higher than anyone else in our road and we’re actually slightly lower in pitch than our direct neighbours! Hopefully the council will see sense and let us remove the clause, but I’m not holding out much hope! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelvin Posted September 22, 2022 Share Posted September 22, 2022 (edited) Conditions (and covenants or restrictions) might well be outdated but they still apply and run with the land or property unless you have them removed. When we sold our last place we ran into a sort of similar problem. There was a covenant on the land (we had a separate field) that restricted the use of the field specifying no livestock. When we bought the house this was never disclosed by the builder, our solicitor didn’t pick it up and when I reviewed the land registry title it didn’t mention it. However, our buyer’s solicitor was much more thorough and uncovered this covenant which extended to all the land around the estate. It was put in place more than 70 years ago by the woman that owned the whole farming estate. She had long since died. The estate had been broken up and sold on. For the 8 years we lived there we kept chickens and horses in the field as we were unaware of this covenant. Our buyer’s were sheep farmers and wanted to use the field as a hospital ‘wing’ effectively. The likelihood of the covenant being enforced was tiny and if someone did try to enforce it, it would be hard for it to be upheld (as there was a Happy Eggs supplier farm next door that had 15,000 chickens and anyone who originally enjoyed the benefit of the covenant had long since gone) Nevertheless the covenant was still stood and we had to take out an indemnity to protect the buyer’s should it ever be enforced. Edited September 22, 2022 by Kelvin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted September 22, 2022 Share Posted September 22, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, Lulu555 said: joe90yes gone up as in have added another storey or raised ridge and have loft conversions. We weren’t trying to go bigger or higher than anyone else in our road and we’re actually slightly lower in pitch than our direct neighbours! Hopefully the council will see sense and let us remove the clause, but I’m not holding out much hope! I would be looking on the planning portal at their applications to see what was accepted, if not much different from yours then go to appeal, I went to appeal and found it easier than dealing with planners and I did it myself and there is NO FEE!!. p.s. do your neighbours HAVE permitted development rights and why were yours not granted. Edited September 22, 2022 by joe90 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelvin Posted September 22, 2022 Share Posted September 22, 2022 Yes spend a few hours on your local planning portal. If nothing else it might give you some ideas on what you can do. Has your architect given you any thoughts on the matter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lulu555 Posted September 22, 2022 Author Share Posted September 22, 2022 What we have applied for is the same as our neighbour but 1! The other houses that have upward extensions are much bigger and have dormers etc. From looking at the planning portal, all were done under planning not permitted development. Looking at our direct neighbour they only had planning for a bungalow but they have gone up so not sure how that’s happened or where the plans are for what they have done. we couldn’t even see that our property didn’t have pd rights and it wasn’t picked up when we brought the house as I did ask tell them solicitor what we wanted to do and he said it shouldn’t be a problem as long as we go through the correct process. The clause says “ no development described in class 1 of schedule 1 to the town and country Planning general development order, 1977 shall be carried out within the curtailment of the dwelling without the permission of the District planning authority given in writing”! Im trying to find a planning lawyer as I think I need to take advice on what we should do! My architect said he’s never heard anything like this happening before, he’s just said we will wait and see what they come back with but I don’t want to just sit and wait! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temp Posted September 23, 2022 Share Posted September 23, 2022 (edited) On 21/09/2022 at 16:14, Lulu555 said: We received a decision notice to say our application was approved and planning website updated. 2 days later my architect received a vm from planning officer saying that they were revoking the decision as they realised we don’t have permitted development rights on our property (a clause added In 1978 when bungalow was built). I think I would ask the planners for a copy of your 1978 planning grant and check PDR we're definitly removed. Probably we're if they say so but still check. I would also consider making a planning application for the same thing as your prior approval/permitted development application. It might be they only revoked it because you don't have PDR not because of other planning reasons. In addition speak to a planning consultant/lawyer about them revoking your permission as I don't think they can do that if the original approval was granted in error. See my post above. It might be the way to proceed would be to file an application for a Certificate of Lawfulness based on the revoked planning approval and citing that they cannot revoke it on the basis of an error. But this is definitly one for an expert to advise on before you do anything. Edited September 23, 2022 by Temp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted September 23, 2022 Share Posted September 23, 2022 On 22/09/2022 at 19:43, Lulu555 said: From looking at the planning portal, all were done under planning not permitted development. On 22/09/2022 at 19:43, Lulu555 said: The clause says “ no development described in class 1 of schedule 1 to the town and country Planning general development order, 1977 shall be carried out within the curtailment of the dwelling without the permission of the District planning authority given in writing”! 56 minutes ago, Temp said: It might be they only revoked it because you don't have PDR not because of other planning reasons. Temp is right, just apply for planning like the others, if it’s refused go to appeal on the basis planning was granted for the neighbours 🤷♂️ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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