New build design & cost estimation opinions

[Gus Potter]

On 31/08/2022 at 19:52, morgan_22 said:

Me and my partner are currently in the process of buying a plot situated in West Wales to build our first home.

Well done to you both. The main thing it to also enjoy the journey!

 

I wonder though about the layout of the kitchen living area and lobby. They say first impressions count. The first thing you'll see (and your guests coming for the great grub) when you come into the room from the lobby will be the kitchen and your cooking innovation / what you are up to. Also I think that they will see not least the narrowish space between the peninsula unit and the hob.. it could look like you are going into a small flat? You want the wow factor when you come in and that is the open living space and being able to see the fire place. Where you have the stair invites the eye..so take as much advantage of that as you can. I would look to create the impression of open space as soon as you come in the front door.. then tease with the staircase.. what else is up stairs??.. just how big is this place?

 

Also remember that at say xmas the house could be full..where is the oven and where is door to open? Will an open oven door further restrict the kitchen activity space and pedestrain route to the ground floor wc ? Check the building regs for Kitchen activity spaces / accessibilty at this stage.. better to do this now.

 

I can see you have got someway with the screen concept.. keep going. Have another go at the kitchen and living space. Things to think about are.. yes you don't want the front door open and a huge draft coming into the room.. but you can have walls that don't go all the way to the ceiling. This also lets you shine diffuse light over the top of them while still cutting out the big drafts. This can work both ways.. the living space could be dark with diffuse light coming over the top from the "lobby".

 

It also means you can have kitchen units hidden behind. Walls can be solid but split with glass, again with careful choice you can invite the eye to appreciate the whole room as one space while still achieving the practical side of things.

 

 

4 hours ago, SBMS said:

It was a difficult one to predict as the tree was in a neighbours garden, 20 meters away, felled 9months ago

 

Don't get too hung up on the tree at the moment at that distance.. unless it was particularly large. Very roughly tree roots extend about the same distance as their height. Have a look on google earth and see how high it may have been.

 

Much will also depend on your soil (not the stuff you grow potaoes in but the stuff under the top soil) type. You can do quite a lot on you own at the moment. trees put down deep roots (structural roots) locally so they don't blow down in the wind. They also send out other roots to gather nutriants and water. Dig a few holes in the garden just with a spade and look at the soil.. ask.. does it look like a good medium where roots will grow? Also look at the ground levels.. ask where would this tree have found water.. on my site or somewhere else. Trees are not "daft" the roots grow where water and nutients are easily avaliable.. this lets them save their energy for propagating.

 

In terms of your structure. You have a good amount of solid walls so achieving overall structural stability looks reasonable doable cheeply. You'll probably need a transfer beam where the ground floor steps out it may just work as a beam alone as you have some return walls to stabalise the rear elevation. You have shown a ridge beam..good idea.. stick with this for now.. you may want to split it into three. If you do you'll need to take some point load down roughly where the hinges to the door to the master bedroom are. With a bit of finesse on regigging the lobby you could make this easy to do without resorting to unnecessary structural beams and complexity.

 

Again the ridge beam concept lets you use say a simple cut timber roof, simple connections leaving plenty depth for cheep but effective insulation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[morgan_22]

12 hours ago, Gus Potter said:

Well done to you both. The main thing it to also enjoy the journey!

 

I wonder though about the layout of the kitchen living area and lobby. They say first impressions count. The first thing you'll see (and your guests coming for the great grub) when you come into the room from the lobby will be the kitchen and your cooking innovation / what you are up to. Also I think that they will see not least the narrowish space between the peninsula unit and the hob.. it could look like you are going into a small flat? You want the wow factor when you come in and that is the open living space and being able to see the fire place. Where you have the stair invites the eye..so take as much advantage of that as you can. I would look to create the impression of open space as soon as you come in the front door.. then tease with the staircase.. what else is up stairs??.. just how big is this place?

 

Also remember that at say xmas the house could be full..where is the oven and where is door to open? Will an open oven door further restrict the kitchen activity space and pedestrain route to the ground floor wc ? Check the building regs for Kitchen activity spaces / accessibilty at this stage.. better to do this now.

 

I can see you have got someway with the screen concept.. keep going. Have another go at the kitchen and living space. Things to think about are.. yes you don't want the front door open and a huge draft coming into the room.. but you can have walls that don't go all the way to the ceiling. This also lets you shine diffuse light over the top of them while still cutting out the big drafts. This can work both ways.. the living space could be dark with diffuse light coming over the top from the "lobby".

 

It also means you can have kitchen units hidden behind. Walls can be solid but split with glass, again with careful choice you can invite the eye to appreciate the whole room as one space while still achieving the practical side of things.

 

 

 

Don't get too hung up on the tree at the moment at that distance.. unless it was particularly large. Very roughly tree roots extend about the same distance as their height. Have a look on google earth and see how high it may have been.

 

Much will also depend on your soil (not the stuff you grow potaoes in but the stuff under the top soil) type. You can do quite a lot on you own at the moment. trees put down deep roots (structural roots) locally so they don't blow down in the wind. They also send out other roots to gather nutriants and water. Dig a few holes in the garden just with a spade and look at the soil.. ask.. does it look like a good medium where roots will grow? Also look at the ground levels.. ask where would this tree have found water.. on my site or somewhere else. Trees are not "daft" the roots grow where water and nutients are easily avaliable.. this lets them save their energy for propagating.

 

In terms of your structure. You have a good amount of solid walls so achieving overall structural stability looks reasonable doable cheeply. You'll probably need a transfer beam where the ground floor steps out it may just work as a beam alone as you have some return walls to stabalise the rear elevation. You have shown a ridge beam..good idea.. stick with this for now.. you may want to split it into three. If you do you'll need to take some point load down roughly where the hinges to the door to the master bedroom are. With a bit of finesse on regigging the lobby you could make this easy to do without resorting to unnecessary structural beams and complexity.

 

Again the ridge beam concept lets you use say a simple cut timber roof, simple connections leaving plenty depth for cheep but effective insulation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Living / Dining / Kitchen area layout was a real headache to design as i tried to maximise each space without creating any wasted space. I might have a rethink with regard to the lobby & what you see when you enter the front door as your points are very valid. Please have a go yourself if you have the time.

 

We currently have 1200mm between the peninsula & wall cabinets so that should allow sufficient space to allow someone to walk through when a cabinet or oven door is open.

 

Yes, we'll need a beam to span where the ground floor steps out and a post & small beam at the corner between the sliding doors & full height window. 

I was thinking of using a CLT/Glulam ridge beam (budget depending!) but splitting it into 3 and making sure there's a solid wall below is a good idea.

Very helpful reply, thanks! 
 

 

[Bozza]

Agree with comments that budget too low.

Agree with going through kitchen to get into house bad idea.

 

If you can mirror the external house design you could have something like this.  Maybe you cannot for some reason.  Might even get three bedroom in upstairs but if space more important than bedroom numbers, two big bedrooms.  Thrown together this just to give you ideas.  If you only need 2 beds upstairs so be it.  Is 2 bathrooms upstairs a necessity in a wee house.  

rotating house to put kitchen at back gives easier access to like of bin store etc near shed etc.

with a more modest size house incorporate as much integrated storage as possible. Looks sleeker, and means you need to buy less furniture.  You don’t get VAT back on a built wardrobe, but you do on an built in cupboard.  Having separate snug downstairs, convertible into bedroom,  in addition to open plan living space v good idea.  

 

 

I think you’ve got a cracking wee project there.    
 

 

 

 

 

[morgan_22]

On 03/09/2022 at 10:57, Bozza said:

Agree with comments that budget too low.

Agree with going through kitchen to get into house bad idea.

 

If you can mirror the external house design you could have something like this.  Maybe you cannot for some reason.  Might even get three bedroom in upstairs but if space more important than bedroom numbers, two big bedrooms.  Thrown together this just to give you ideas.  If you only need 2 beds upstairs so be it.  Is 2 bathrooms upstairs a necessity in a wee house.  

rotating house to put kitchen at back gives easier access to like of bin store etc near shed etc.

with a more modest size house incorporate as much integrated storage as possible. Looks sleeker, and means you need to buy less furniture.  You don’t get VAT back on a built wardrobe, but you do on an built in cupboard.  Having separate snug downstairs, convertible into bedroom,  in addition to open plan living space v good idea.  

 

 

I think you’ve got a cracking wee project there.    
 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the comment!

 

Will have a re-think regarding the entrance layout & kitchen (and maybe the overall layout).

 

Regarding the budget, what figure would you think would be more realistic? 

We are currently in the feasibility stage and at the moment we are struggling to see how building would be cheaper than buying a small house & renovating, even though house prices are at an all time high.

[Bozza]

3 hours ago, morgan_22 said:

Thanks for the comment!

 

Will have a re-think regarding the entrance layout & kitchen (and maybe the overall layout).

 

Regarding the budget, what figure would you think would be more realistic? 

We are currently in the feasibility stage and at the moment we are struggling to see how building would be cheaper than buying a small house & renovating, even though house prices are at an all time high.

Re budget.  My house was turnkey, bigger and pre covid / inflation so there are only some things that I was aware of the costs that I can compare against.  So much is so flipping expensive at the moment.  Of those things I look at I think I do hope you could get them at that price, but just think are too low v my own experience.  The roof slate looks too low as does UFH and groundworks costs.  Yes you have a modest size house design but due to economies of scale the savings are often less than you think in real terms.   and like other have comment a smaller site has its own challenges that could cost you. You have allowed 10% contingency.  I would say allow perhaps 20-30% to cover everything.  Now I may be wrong and be delighted if I am, for your sake.  What I would say is if you have the means to loan 30% more than your estimate without having to sell a kidney, then great.    If you don’t end up spending that, then even better.
 

You are quite correct that sometimes self building isn’t as “profitable” v renovating etc.  both have pros & cons.  If I had spent the money I did on my self build, on existing stock, I would have ended up living in a generic development somewhere with a generic house with generic features.   Stepford wives etc.  There is always something unique & special about self building.  Nothing more rewarding than someone commenting positively on something about your self build and knowing “I designed that”.  

But there are other benefits.   Whilst most self builders install renewable and energy efficient technology for environmental benefits, often in excess of min building standards, the unforeseen benefit has been our energy bills recently which we are more protected against.  Also moving forward houses with high insulation standards, WFH space etc etc will become more valuable than standard housing stock that don’t have that stuff.

 

 

 

 

[twice round the block]

I think your budget is light by at least 25k. I can't see any figures for plant hire, legal fee's,  insurance's , professional fee's,  planning fee's.

The delay on any planning process can delay a project for a year or more. Then you don't want to be building in the winter. 

A year delay with material price increases of 30% will send your spread sheet into orbit.

Your estimates seem to tied in to the penny with no lee way whatsoever. 

[morgan_22]

I've had a play around with the layout & spaces in the last week, we decided to change the layout to fit two small dbl bedrooms instead of one large dbl bedroom on the first floor as this would increase the value of the finished house.

 

Attached the updated plans & elevation drawings for your comment!

(Apologies for turning this post into a design discussion on a cost & estimating forum)

PL03 - PROPOSED ELEVATIONS.pdf PL02 - PROPOSED PLANS.pdf

[Ferdinand]

I like the project as well, especially the upstairs open to the warm roof.

 

You should know being an AT, but check if the number of bedrooms you submit with requires an extra parking space or other stuff (minimum private outside space is a common one - may require an opaque tall front gate so your front lawn is private) under policy. It should be easy peasy to leave it as 2 big bedrooms upstairs and divide one later.

 

Does your downstairs shower room meet disabled 'turning circle' regs?

 

Personally  I prefer roof windows to be towards the top more than you have it, so there is a sense of light from the sky - unless they are ones you need a view through.

 

Keep your staircase gradient as shallow as possible (ie towards 35-37 degress rather than 42), as it makes the whole house feel more luxurious. If you can.

 

F

[Kelvin]

Do you plan on living here a while? If so do you need the extra bedroom or will it be a room that never gets used? I think you should design your house for you and use every sqm and not the next people but have enough flexibility in the design to easily change it should you sell it. Our house design only has two rooms described as bedrooms, one upstairs and a guest bedroom downstairs beside a big wheelchair friendly bathroom. Upstairs is a master bedroom suite with large bedroom, large bathroom, and a large dressing room that’s open at the top of the stairs. It also has a study downstairs that’s beside the downstairs bathroom. Therefore can either be a two bed house, three bed house or a 4 bed house with a little modification. 
 

On the rooflights - I agree with Ferdinand, if you have a nice view then make sure you can see it from upstairs. If not then maximise light. Ours are 1600x900 to let us see the view we paid for and to let in lots of light. 

[morgan_22]

6 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

I like the project as well, especially the upstairs open to the warm roof.

 

You should know being an AT, but check if the number of bedrooms you submit with requires an extra parking space or other stuff (minimum private outside space is a common one - may require an opaque tall front gate so your front lawn is private) under policy. It should be easy peasy to leave it as 2 big bedrooms upstairs and divide one later.

 

Does your downstairs shower room meet disabled 'turning circle' regs?

 

Personally  I prefer roof windows to be towards the top more than you have it, so there is a sense of light from the sky - unless they are ones you need a view through.

 

Keep your staircase gradient as shallow as possible (ie towards 35-37 degress rather than 42), as it makes the whole house feel more luxurious. If you can.

 

F

Yes, 2 car parking spaces will be sufficent for a 3 bed dwelling as we are in a suburban area. The plan was to have a tall gate & fencing to give us plenty of privacy to use the front garden.

 

No it doesn't comply as an accessible shower room but this is not a necessity as we only need space for a small downstairs WC & shower.

 

That's a good point regarding the roof lights as they will only be used to flood the landing/staircase with light so i'll definitely move them higher towards the ridge.

 

I doubt we'll be able to reduce the pitch of the stairs as i'd like to keep the staircase area as compact as possible to retain the small upstairs study space.

 

Thanks!

[morgan_22]

5 hours ago, Kelvin said:

Do you plan on living here a while? If so do you need the extra bedroom or will it be a room that never gets used? I think you should design your house for you and use every sqm and not the next people but have enough flexibility in the design to easily change it should you sell it. Our house design only has two rooms described as bedrooms, one upstairs and a guest bedroom downstairs beside a big wheelchair friendly bathroom. Upstairs is a master bedroom suite with large bedroom, large bathroom, and a large dressing room that’s open at the top of the stairs. It also has a study downstairs that’s beside the downstairs bathroom. Therefore can either be a two bed house, three bed house or a 4 bed house with a little modification. 
 

On the rooflights - I agree with Ferdinand, if you have a nice view then make sure you can see it from upstairs. If not then maximise light. Ours are 1600x900 to let us see the view we paid for and to let in lots of light. 

Yes we are planning to live there for a while. Fair point but we would prefer to have an extra guest bedroom just in case we did have guests over or we were to ever rent a room to help with costs.

If we were to sell I think we would try to sell as a 4 bed (by turning the downstairs snug into a bedroom) even though the living space would be on the small end for a 4 bed house.

 
Thanks!

 

[Ferdinand]

1 hour ago, morgan_22 said:

Yes, 2 car parking spaces will be sufficent for a 3 bed dwelling as we are in a suburban area. The plan was to have a tall gate & fencing to give us plenty of privacy to use the front garden.

 

No it doesn't comply as an accessible shower room but this is not a necessity as we only need space for a small downstairs WC & shower.

 

That's a good point regarding the roof lights as they will only be used to flood the landing/staircase with light so i'll definitely move them higher towards the ridge.

 

I doubt we'll be able to reduce the pitch of the stairs as i'd like to keep the staircase area as compact as possible to retain the small upstairs study space.

 

Thanks!

 

Is not the issue with the downstairs loo is that wheelchair accessibility is a Building Regs requirement? I am not sure whether the shower is required to be accessible. But this is again your subject, so I guess you have that covered.

 

Also I think I recall that a raft of new Building Regs came in on I think June 15th this year.

 

I'd encourage you to do the more relaxed stairs to the extent you can - you lose about half a square metre and it makes a noticeable difference.

 

F