Argument with door supplier about PSA24 and European equivalents

[hendriQ]

Ordered a rather expensive front door. Prior to ordering I told the supplier that I wanted PS24. They said that being a European company they don't do PS24 (that being a British standard) but they can offer European equivalent. I gullibly said yes.

Supplier has been very slow in general. Several months after I signed off on the post survey drawings, I get an email telling me that they design I want can't be done with 5 point multipoint locking and i can either change the design or accept 3 point locking instead. I ask how that will affect the security of the door. They say it won't make a difference because it's a standard level of security. I then drill into this pointing out i never orders a standard security and find out that what they are offering is RC2. I point out that RC2 is inferior to RC3 and that even RC3 isn't as good as PS24. I cite the guidance published by Secured by Design  which explains the additional measures that are required for RC3 doors so that they comply with PS24 and also the definitions of RC2 and RC3:

 

RC2	Occasional burglar uses basic burglary tools	Increased protection for normal housing security	3 - 15 mins
RC3	Experienced burglar uses heavy duty drilling and hammering tools	High level of security for the premises in view of increased risk of burglary	5 - 20  mins

 

 

I point out that they got their knickers in a fuddle by confusing windows with doors (in the window world, PS24 is indeed equivalent to RC2 or RC3 (can't remember which, but not in the door world). They claim that they only ever offered "similar to" PS24, not equivalence. I say bollox.

Do people agree I'm entitled to my money back? Even if the description of the door was "similar to PS24" as opposed to "equivalent to", isn't a RC2 door sufficiently inferior to RC3 that it is in no way similar to PS24. It's like saying a Gold rated D lock and a Bronze rated D lock are similar because they are both D locks. Or a detached house and a terraced house are both similar because they are both houses.

For contextual reference, it is abundantly clear that the door has not been manufactured, so the only loss the company might sustain from their negligence is the lost time in conning me.

[MikeSharp01]

If they said equivalent then it should be equivalent, get your money back and find one that meets your (the UK standard) spec.

[craig]

This is a topic that always irks me to be honest, one that invokes heated debated and I'm right you're wrong answers.

 

In my honest opinion, SBD is no better than RC2 - they are both based on EN1627-30 which is the European standard. I have supplied European windows into the UK market for years and one supplier refuses to obtain additional certification (SBD/Pas24) for certifications they already have (EN1627-30). Gravenhill is an example and one that @Visti will confirm. Every single document/test etc. had to be supplied to the insurance company, to be able to use the product they wanted to use. 

 

This wasn't that long ago and after PAS24:2016 was introduced and full acceptance of EN1627-30 as equivalent or better.

 

Is RC3 poorer to PAS24:2016? No in my honest opinion - I'd actually say it's better. 

 

I'll happily get you a run of the mill window for you, Pas24:2016 certified versus a European window that is RC2 certified (8 point locking, laminated glass & glued into the frame) & (I can pretty much guarantee which window you'll break into first).

 

RC Table below

 

DIN EN 1627	DIN V ENV 1627 (until 09/2011)	Resistance time	Type of offender / procedure
RC 1 N		3 min	Components in resistance class 1 offer basic protection against attempted forced entry with physical violence, such as kicking or pulling out. This class comprises only windows with standard glazing.
RC 2 N	WK 2 without safety glass	3 min	Casual thieves use simple tools as well, such as screwdrivers, pliers and wedges, to break open the closed and locked component. Forced entry is supposed to be prevented by other means, for this reason only standard glazing is installed.
RC 2	WK 2	3 min	Expected burglar type and burglar behaviour correspond to class RC 2 N. The installation of a safety glass according to EN 356 is mandatory.
RC 3	WK 3	5 min	The habitual burglar uses a second screwdriver and a crow-bar as well to break open the closed and locked component.
RC 4	WK 4	10 min	The experienced burglar uses sawing and hammering tools as well, such as axes, chisels, hammers and battery-operated drills.
RC 5	WK 5	15 min	The experienced burglar uses high-performance power tools as well, such as drills, sabre saws and grinders with a maximum wheel diameter of 125 mm.
RC 6	WK 6	20 min	The experienced burglar uses high-performance power tools as well, such as drills, sabre saws and grinders with a maximum wheel diameter of 250 mm.

 

Secure By Design requirements

 

Alternative accreditation can be demonstrated by appropriately qualified test facilities that are signatories of the EA Multilateral Agreement (EA MLA); such test and certification organisations should take due regard to the UK Police Service Secured by Design Interpretive document for BS EN 1627:2011, BS EN 1628:2011, BSEN1629:2011and BSEN1630:2011 (for products tested and certificated to PAS 24):

 

RC2 is widely accepted as equivalent to PAS:24 

https://www.securedbydesign.com/guidance/test-certification-facilities

 

Also important to note, that RC2N no longer exists.

Edited December 8, 2021 by craig

[Visti]

Gods, it took nearly a year to settle the window and door security argument. In the end we were down to our 5th inspector who just signed it off... 

 

I love the Austrian windows and doors, but never again unless I get the right standards on paper up front.

[hendriQ]

6 hours ago, craig said:

I'll happily get you a run of the mill window for you, Pas24:2016 certified versus a European window that is RC2 certified (8 point locking, laminated glass & glued into the frame) & (I can pretty much guarantee which window you'll break into first).

Thanks, but I'm not sure this is relevant to my original question which was about doors, not windows. When I have probed the literature on this it is clear that the standards for windows are not the same for doors.

6 hours ago, craig said:

Secure By Design requirements

 

Alternative accreditation can be demonstrated by appropriately qualified test facilities that are signatories of the EA Multilateral Agreement (EA MLA); such test and certification organisations should take due regard to the UK Police Service Secured by Design Interpretive document for BS EN 1627:2011, BS EN 1628:2011, BSEN1629:2011and BSEN1630:2011 (for products tested and certificated to PAS 24)

The interpretative document you refer to here is this Secured by Design document, which explains at page 65 that for doors:

 

"A doorset which conforms to BS EN 1627 RC3 would additionally be expected to conform to the following to meet the requirements of PAS 24: 

 Annex A Security hardware and cylinder test and assessment. 

 Cylinders falling within the scope of EN 1303 shall meet key-related security (digit 7) grade 5 and resistance to drilling security grade 2."

 

It is perhaps not the clearest of drafting, but to my mind (as an English language teacher), what that is saying is that:

• doorsets that conform to RC3 do not automatically conform to PAS24;
• However, if an RC3 certified doorset can also be tested to pass those two further tests, then it will also conform to PAS 24
• in other words PAS24 is more stringent thant RC3 because it has two additional tests that need to be passed which do not form part of the RC3 test.

Edited December 8, 2021 by hendriQ

[craig]

That's just a cylinder & locking mechanism, all you need to do ask them for emergency danger function and drill protection cylinder and they'll be able to supply it. 

 

9 hours ago, hendriQ said:

doorsets that conform to RC3 do not automatically conform to PAS24

 

Doors certified to RC3 will have BSEN: 1627/28/29/30 testing, the suppliers will be able to supply the relevant hardware (i.e. locking mechanisms and cylinders) which will have been tested or should have been tested. They may not have been tested specifically on that door type but not all doors are tested in a range. You have one door tested with the relevant materials and then all of them are deemed to satisfy.

Edited December 9, 2021 by craig