Party Wall Query

[Becks1974]

Hello,

 

So we have in place a Party Wall Agreement for one of our neighbours, all good - the other neighbour have now jumped on the bandwagon and want a Party Wall Agreement - we have planning permission for a single story extension and the property for the neighbours wanting a PWA is further away than 3 metres and does not contravene the 45 degree rule, so no Agreement necessary - I have informed them of this in writing.  They have now taken it upon themselves to appoint a surveyor, this surveyor has stated that we would need a PWA due to a brick built raised planter which is constructed wholly on their land, but is right on the boundary line.  This brick built wall is approx 3.5 foot high.  I have read through the ACT and it is not clear, but reading between the lines it looks like because the wall is wholly on their side we wouldn't need a Party Wall Agreement in place?

 

I have attached a couple of photos which shows where their wall is in connection to our side - theirs is the brick wall, and ours are the concrete steps, as the photo shows there is a gap on about 1cm between both structures.

 

Is there anybody out there who is able to shed a bit of clarity on the act.

 

Many thanks in advance.

 

 

 

[Mr Punter]

It is hard to say without seeing the plans, including the next door building and the planter.  I cannot see that a planter falls within the act and either way if you damage it you will need to pay.  If you did serve a notice you will be up for paying 2 sets of surveyor fees which seems ridiculous.

 

If you go ahead without an award, the only remedy your neighbour would have is to seek a High Court injunction to stop your work.  They would have to front the cost for their legal fees to do this and would be liable for all your costs should they fail.  In my experience people think very long and hard before stumping up cash for this nonsense.

[markc]

A planter is not a habitable room or building and  is unlikely to cause injury to your neighbour. 

Yes you need to the reasonable steps not to damage their property but just get onbwith it.

[Becks1974]

Hello, thanks for your reply. The brick wall IS the planter, it holds in the soil and a rather large clamitis and that’s it, but it is still a wall right up to our boundary but wholly on the neighbour’s side. We don’t really get on with those neighbours and they are being a pain in the wotsit!  The last thing I want to do is go through the PWA with them, but if they are right and we start works then they are the sort of people to get an injunction. My surveyor will be round to have a look once he has served them notice, but I feel it could be too late by then?

[Mr Punter]

Do not serve them with a notice.  This is not a Party Wall matter.

[saveasteading]

Take lots of pictures of the current condition of everything, even the clematis.

Also the road/pavement kerbs.

 

Tell your surveyor you are doing this, and so the pictures are acknowledged.

 

I have had verbal and written claims of substantial damage to adjacent factories and houses on various occasions.

All I had to do was say that I had condition photos of their building before the works commenced, and that was the end of it They didn't even ask to see them..

 

I did have to advise our insurers of potential claims, otherwise there is no cover, so it is all hassle. 

[Becks1974]

Their surveyor is saying that because it is a retaining wall, and therefore likely to have foundations less than our proposed foundations then we have to issue them notice under section 6 of the Act. I would love to be brave enough and not issue the notice for this poxy wall, however he is in the funny handshake brigade and will probably be able to get a court injection through quickly which we couldn’t afford to go through

[saveasteading]

from the government document

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/523010/Party_Wall_etc__Act_1996_-_Explanatory_Booklet.pdf

 

A wall is a "party fence wall" if it is not part of a building, and stands astride the boundary line between lands of different owners and is used to separate those lands (for example a masonry garden wall). This does not include such things as wooden fences or hedges.

 

Walls that are not Party Walls: These may include boundary walls (a fence wall/garden wall built wholly on one owner’s land) and external walls (the wall of a building built up to but not astride the boundary).

 

As you say it is all on their land, that seems to be answered.  there may be footings on your side, but technically shouldn't be, so let's not go there for now.

 

15 minutes ago, Becks1974 said:

Their surveyor is saying

Has their surveyor said this to you or is it second-hand from the neighbour?

Is the surveyor qualified, and in what?  Even RICS covers lots of variable skills and does not necessarily include law/ party wall or even construction.

 

IF other buildhubbers can confirm, then in my opinion:

No point in messing. Tell the neighbour your advice is that their surveyor is wrong, but please advise us in writing if you wish. We will hold you liable for all costs from this stage.

[Mr Punter]

2 hours ago, saveasteading said:

No point in messing. Tell the neighbour your advice is that their surveyor is wrong, but please advise us in writing if you wish. We will hold you liable for all costs from this stage.

 

+1

[markc]

Another +1

[Temp]

The PWA is not just about Party Walls.. 

 

As I recall the PWA applies if you are excavating within a certain distance/depth of a neighbours "structure" but I can't remember if a structure is defined anywhere. It sounds like the surveyor is after his cake (your money) and has said the planter counts as a structure.

 

I would do some googling to find out what counts as a structure.

 

It's worth knowing that there is no penalty for not complying with the PWA. It only becomes a problem if you cause damage to the neighbours structure and it ends up in court. In which case the judge may take a dim view of your non compliance.  But for the cost of a planter I'd settle out of court if I thought I'd damaged it.

 

Wrote the above before I read..

Their surveyor is saying that because it is a retaining wall, and therefore likely to have foundations less than our proposed foundations then we have to issue them notice under section 6 of the Act. I would love to be brave enough and not issue the notice for this poxy wall, however he is in the funny handshake brigade and will probably be able to get a court injection through quickly which we couldn’t afford to go through

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 15, 2021 by Temp

[Temp]

The Guide  says it applies if you want to..

 

• excavate, or excavate for and construct foundations for a new building or structure, within 3 metres of any part of a neighbouring owner's building or structure, where any part of that work will go deeper than the neighbour's foundations (see diagram 6); or
• excavate, or excavate for and construct foundations for a new building or structure, within 6 metres of any part of a neighbouring owner's building or structure, where any part of that work will meet a line drawn downwards at 45° in the direction of the excavation from the bottom of the neighbour's foundations (see diagram 7)

 

The guide defines a "Party Structure" eg a boundary wall or floor but not a regular structure. Would a clothes line pole count as a structure for example.

 

Perhaps there is something in that act itself?

[Becks1974]

Thanks for everybody’s advice, I guess it’s down to interpretation as to what a ‘structure’ actually is as I can’t find a definitive answer on Google. I think we’ll have to roll with this as petty as our neighbours are over a silly raised planter they are the sort of people who would seek an injunction  and probably win, therefore potentially costing us thousands more than the surveyor fees. We have a few other things up our sleeves as equally as petty, but we’ll bide our time and act on them once the extension is finally built!  Patience is a virtue and all that ?

[saveasteading]

1 minute ago, Becks1974 said:

would seek an injunction  and probably win,

No, they would be seen as petty and wasting the court's time, especially if they had not tried other means of resolution, and you were seen to having been reasonable.

 

The word 'structure' is used extensively in the definitions section of the Scottish regs, but not defined itself, which is interesting but not helpful.

 

I would revert to this:         Walls that are not Party Walls include boundary walls built wholly on one owner’s land).