To buy not to buy and what to expect.

[Robw85]

All I can see are these 

Planning Applications (2)

• Application for notification for prior approval for a proposed change of use of agricultural building to a dwelling house (Class C3), and for associated operational development.
• Status: Prior Approval Refused
• Application for notification for prior approval for a proposed change of use of agricultural building to a dwelling house (Class C3), and for associated operational development.

  Status: Prior Approval Refused

both ok with parish council frame work. 

 

just both have archaeological surgery required first. Think that’s why they were refused. 

[IanR]

57 minutes ago, Robw85 said:

All I can see are these 

Planning Applications (2)

• Application for notification for prior approval for a proposed change of use of agricultural building to a dwelling house (Class C3), and for associated operational development.
• Status: Prior Approval Refused
• Application for notification for prior approval for a proposed change of use of agricultural building to a dwelling house (Class C3), and for associated operational development.

  Status: Prior Approval Refused

both ok with parish council frame work. 

 

just both have archaeological surgery required first. Think that’s why they were refused. 

 

 

The first one was refused because...

Q.1  Development is not permitted by Class Q if—

 

   (f)development under Class A(a) or Class B(a) of Part 6 of this Schedule (agricultural buildings and operations) has been carried out on the established agricultural unit—

         (i)since 20th March 2013; or

         (ii)where development under Class Q begins after 20th March 2023, during the period which is 10 years before the date development under Class Q begins;

 

The second one was refused because the Council were not convinced that the subsequent splitting off of the Barn from the original Agricultural Unit that had done the Class A(a) or Class B(a) development after 20.03.2013, into a separate Agricultural Unit, had actually happened.

 

So, in short, no barns/sheds that are part of Lower Barn Farm Agricultural unit will qualify for Change of Use to Resi, under Class Q PD, until 10 years after the date that Class A(a) or Class B(a) development was completed.

Doh!   Your Consultant was correct. Class Q is off the table. 

Edited to add:
Lower Barn Farm appear to have built a Hay and Straw barn and an Implement shed, untillising Class A(a) or Class B(a) Agricultural PD between 2014 and 2016. Since this is after 20.03.2013, it starts the 10 year clock running before Class Q can be used on the Agricultural Unit.

Edited September 3, 2021 by IanR

[Lorenz]

Watched a video including that earlier, really have to be careful what you ask for and what you tell them especially in writing. It all keeps starting again and again....

[Robw85]

Thank you IanR, your so knowledgable.

So full PP would be the only option here. 
So for PP we’d need a archaeological survey to be carried out. But that can be mentioned in a pre plan application etc. 

[IanR]

Yes, Full PP is the only option.

 

Here's an example of a successful Change of Use Application at Maldon. A bit of trading off was done, removing a couple of structures to allow another to be converted.

 

https://cdp.maldon.gov.uk/planning/planning-documents?SDescription=20/00994/FUL

 

Maldon do seem to make you work for an Approval. I have a feeling they'll want Stage I surveys for most things as part of the Application. Your Planning consultant needs to try and push them to pre-commencement conditions, but might not get away with it.

For the Application linked to, the surveys required were: Bat and Owl (Protected species), Preliminary Ecological Appraisal and Heritage, but no contamination

The recommendation was to Refuse, but it appears to have been pulled in to committee and been Approved against recommendation.

I'm locallish to Maldon, and I hear they are a little difficult...

Edited September 3, 2021 by IanR

[LSB]

I'm in Suffolk, so next door to Essex and they are difficult as well.

We had to have, bat / owl, contamination phase 1, Ecological and archaeological all before they would even consider the application (Class Q).

Hence, we had 2 refusals because our planning consultant tried to fight for these being post permission.

We then tried for knock down and rebuild and we refused.

This lot took years so we just gave up and we are converting the barn.

 

I'm not sure if full PP is as difficult as you don't have to meet so much criteria, but your planning consultant should know.

 

We did a pre-app with the LPA and they told us exactly what they wanted before they would even consider, but that was at least helpful in knowing where to go.

[Robw85]

Not sure what to do now, land owner said council don’t know what they are doing. Under class Q you can convert up to 5000sqft of agricultural buildings every 5 years then it resets… Anyone every heard of this? 

Edited September 7, 2021 by Robw85

[IanR]

33 minutes ago, Robw85 said:

Not sure what to do now, land owner said council don’t know what they are doing. Under class Q you can convert up to 5000sqft of agricultural buildings every 5 years then it resets… Anyone every heard of this? 

No that's unfortunately not true. An Agricultural Unit gets one allowance to convert, with no renewal. They can now convert up to 5 properties, although not more than three large (greater than 100m² floor area) and the max cumulative area converted to large properties allowable is 465m². Small properties are those with less than 100m² floor area.

But, the Agricultural Unit can not benefit from Class Q PD if it has used Agricultural PD (Class A(a) or Class B(a)) since 20.03.2013, until 10 years after that PD was used.

Edited September 7, 2021 by IanR

[Robw85]

Thanks Ian thought that might be the case. We’ll leave this to the consultant to sort that’s what he’s for. 

[kxi]

One angle your consultant might consider as part of a full PP application is citing the potential for Class Q as a future material consideration in any full PP application.

 

I.e. if farm has used PD in 2016, Class Q should be available again in 2026. As such the planning dept can likely expect an application from someone then for a Class Q conversion, potentially covering multiple barns on the plot. The availability of Class Q is a 'material consideration' when considering PP i.e. a planning dept should explicitly consider this as a factor when considering the full PP.

 

The idea is you argue that your full PP application is in some way 'better' than what might be achieved under Class Q. In your case, even though Class Q isn't available now - it will be in future (assuming legislation doesn't change).

 

Class Q as a 'fallback position' I suspect is / will / should become a common planning consultant approach in mitigating the issues with Class Q. I.e. Class Q encourages difficult and often unsatisfactory conversions, and using it as a fallback position to aid a 'better' full PP application seems like a good idea. One might apply this approach to any of the class Q conversions flagged on buildhub @adamr7747 ?

 

See the Mansell appeal 2017:

https://www.michelmores.com/news-views/news/planning-potential-improve-class-q-consent

I don't know to what extent this approach has been tested again legally, but your planning consultant would know.

[LSB]

so, what about height, lots of barns are only suitable for single storey properties.

using the above should it be possible to get PP for a 1.5 or 2 storey house on the grounds that it would look better.

this is a barn that could get class Q.

 

Or, will the new build still have to stick to the size of the barn curtilage

 

 

[IanR]

It's unlikely the LPA would allow PP for something larger than what is already there. Most Barns are within countryside, so LPA's have to follow the NPPF to not allow development in the countryside unless it improves the openness of the countryside.

 

The Class Q permits the Change of Use, so it's then down to convincing the LPA that a knock-down and rebuild would lead to a better house (performance, layout, sustainability) and an improved setting (higher quality materials, less visually intrusive).
 

I can't see a larger volume, or one that is not in keeping (non-agricultural in form and materials) improving the setting, so I'd think they are not options.

[IanR]

@Robw85

Thought this may be of interest, if you've not seen it already. A little North of Lower Barn Farm, and under the Uttlesford LPA, which by all accounts are a lot more relaxed on Change of Use PD/Applications.

https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/113649239#/?channel=RES_BUY

 

https://publicaccess.uttlesford.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=summary&keyVal=QUPD1TQN01O00

 

[IanR]

On 20/09/2021 at 10:10, IanR said:

https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/113649239#/?channel=RES_BUY

 

https://publicaccess.uttlesford.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=summary&keyVal=QUPD1TQN01O00

 

Heading to auction. Perhaps someone is in a rush to sell.

 

https://auctioneertemplates.eigroup.co.uk/auctioneers/ded/lot-details.html?lid=149337&ClientID=33&lad=Stebbing-Road-CM6-3LG

[Robw85]

Thanks Ian, just seen these. Went to buildit live today in Bicester quite interesting to see and hear all the different build techniques ppl are going through. 

Edited October 3, 2021 by Robw85