Fixing Ceiling Joists to Steel Beams and Wall

[DerekSharpting]

Hello to all,

 

I'm having major work done to renovate my bungalow including a converted attic. Long story short I'm not convinced my builder has done a fantastic job and even worse has pretty much done a bunk and left me waiting for him to come back for the last 3 months. Specifically my concern is around fixing the downstairs ceiling into the steel beams and walls. From what I could tell he has just used a nail gun to attach them to the wall (maybe the wallplate?) and thats it.  In the 5th picture I have shown a wide view (contains the stairs lay on the floor), this section dropped and prompted me to get another builder to fix it, and you can see how he did this in the first picture by attaching an offcut with screws and notching it into the beam. In addition he went all around the house and screwed in Reisser Cutter Screws. However, I'm still not at all convinced this is the correct solution. 

 

At this point i'm almost out of money so ideally looking for the best solution that isn't rip it out and do it again. 

 

Thanks for having a look

 

Derek

[Temp]

 I can't comment on all of it but he probably did this when he found he couldn't get the joist into position (poor planning?).  It's not elegant but if the joist is fixed to the wall I think its ok.

 

 

 

Quote

From what I could tell he has just used a nail gun to attach them to the wall (maybe the wallplate?) and thats it.

 

I might be out of date but  I think chemical anchor bolts are normally used for fixing wall plates to brickwork. They probably could be retrofitted. eg by drilling through the wall plate into the brick (not a mortar joint), injecting the adhesive and inserting lengths of threaded rod. When set washers and nuts added.

 

See what others say.

 

PS: I might question the lack of a padstone under the ends of the steel above the patio doors but its not always needed.

Edited December 15, 2020 by Temp

[tonyshouse]

Coach screw to wall with plugs or chemical anchors 10mm wood bit through wood, then 10mm masonry bit bang in blue plug and screw in 120mm coach screw and washer one in each joist space 1/3 up 

 

 

[Temp]

 

3 hours ago, DerekSharpting said:

this section dropped and prompted me to get another builder to fix it,

 

Got any photos of that?

[tonyshouse]

Need to insulate the beam over the patio door possible composite laminated plasterboard infill web with pir 

 

ply over vertical face and plasterboard 

[Gus Potter]

Hello Derek.

 

As a word of encouragement many things can be fixed.

 

The first thing is to make sure the basic elements of the structure are sound or if not, can be fixed. Then you can look at the other areas that require remedial action, the various options.. what you can do yourself, what you can't and so on. It may be that you can't do something as you maybe don't have the specialist tools or the expertise.. or time.

 

I have had a quick look at the photos. The first thing that I noticed was that  (I think the seventh photo) you have a transfer beam resting on a padstone on the end of an inside single brick wall. Just beyond that there is a concrete lintel and what looks like some timber infill framing. A concern I would have would be the stability of almost what is now  a potentially slender masonry column which seems to be carrying a fair bit of vertical load. When you are working with older properties you have to make an allowance for the age / materials used etc and most importantly how the work you do will impact on the existing structure.

 

Another key thing it to make sure the building is tied together. For example you can see the joists are roughly notched to sit on the flange of the beam. Normally I would expect to see some steel tie straps or some other method that ensures the ends of the joists framing into the beam are tied together so they can't slip off the flange for example. Also, by tying the joists they work more effectively to hold the external walls in place. Tying different bits of a building together is critical to structural design.

 

I see this from time to time where people leave in a slender piece of masonry. Looks fine on a drawing / maybe you can get it to work calculation wise but once you get the builder in the rules of the game change!

 

If you wish you can post some plans as BH members will be better able to see what you are dealing with and maybe make cost effective suggestions. In the meantime it would be worth while getting the thing checked out by an SE before you go any further.

 

All the best.

 

 

[TonyT]

Every hole in the joist hanger should have an appropriate nail in the hole.

 

my structural engineer specified a mechanical fixing- like a shield bolt. 
he kept the the resin fixings for the truss that was adjacent to the wall. Fixing every 600mm.

 

 

[TonyT]

It’s not too bad, it’s a pity the extra timbers that were added were not extended to the edge of the existing joist rather than stopping short.

 

I would drill 12mm holes in the timber then into the wall, clean holes out and inject resin.

 

cheapest way is to buy 10mm rods on long lengths and fit them oversize, put a square washer and nut on and push into hole- let resin set then tighten up.

do the holes in staggered lines 600mm apart.

 

nail all the joist hangers- Simpson joist hanger nails.

cut a timber to fit in the steel flange and hammer it in then timbers from this to adjoining timbers. Use 90mm ring shank nails.

[Gus Potter]

Good point TonyT.. one avenue worth exploring.

 

For all.. when you are dealing with older brickwork there is some uncertainty as to how much load a resin anchor say can carry never mind any of the expanding type fixings. Also, to get near the capacity of the declared manufacture's values you need to be installing the fixings near to the centre of the bricks. It's sod's law that just when you think you have a winner the coursing of the bricks stymies any hope you have. It's can be even worse when you are trying to do extensions say and trying to fix into brick with holes in them.

 

For Derek the best thing to my mind it to sort out the basic load paths and key structural elements (if required to do so) then focus on how to fix the rest. Work out what is involved, the costs, what you can do youself, what you can practically justify as being structurally ok, even if it does not comply with the original SE design.

 

I am being cautious, but Derek has not provided enough information to enable a view to be taken as to what loads are being applied at first floor level and also how the stability of the external walls is maintained. There could be a lot more load than what we can see from the photos! But.. there may be less too! Thus the the issues may be a lot less of a problem.

 

Also, once you start to delve into this stuff you need to review the founds and underbuilding. If the builder has gone "astray" then you could over stress the founds.. there is quite a bit to look at.

 

That said, although I seem like a gloom and doom merchant many of these things can resolve themselves.. but you need to be able to show that you have at least considered all of the parts that hold the building up and how they interact.

 

For Derek it may well be not as bad as things first seem. The key here is to identify the key issues (load bearing and structural stability) and fix them if necessary, then suppliment this with the finer.. minor points.. which could be just a case of adding a few extra fixings.

 

[TonyT]

Agree, sometimes better to drill bricks with hammer /sds turned off

and just drill.

 

also not seen fixings in the restraint straps.

I’ve seen worse..and that never moved so don’t worry too much.

[DerekSharpting]

Thanks for all the comments so far. There is alot to go through and I need to get my builder friend to make sense of some of it for me. I'm sure I can do alot of the work myself with my dad once I know what I'm doing. I've had a structural engineer involved for the design of all the loadings.

 

Gus - Not sure if it will help but that 7th picture wall will have a 2x4 wall/double doorway coming from it to the opposite wall (you can see the gap better in the 8th picture)

 

Temp - No pic of that section that dropped unfortunately. It dropped about 15mm I believe at the end towards the steel.

 

I can make a video walkthrough or take more pictures if it would help matters?

[Gus Potter]

Hello Derek.

 

Post more photos and probably as helpful if not more would be the floor plans. A video would be a bonus. That portion of masonry holding up the end of the floor transfer beam is one of the things that stands out as something that needs a closer look.

 

Often you use new timber stud walls to restrain bits of brickwork but is really important to connect it all together correctly. Examine the info the SE gave you. Don't hesitate to phone the SE if you have any doubts or if anything has changed (even small changes) since the SE did the calcs etc as it easy to get caught out by thinking that it's ok to move a door say, then all of a sudden you remove something that the SE has relied upon to provide stability to say a main load bearing element.

 

If you work through things a bit at a time you'll get there.